Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.

[butchersapron]

Accused of not being a nazi by the reactionary right is the worst though. This is shameful.

 

[friendofdorothy]

this thread is far too confusing.

 

[mojo pixy]

I do get pissed off I am repeatedly accused of identity politics by the reactionary right for not being a nazi and then accused of the same by the left for not treating class as an (usually implicitly gendered, racialised) identity, and lefties refuse to take the abuse of the term seriously. I hear the term more from the right than the left these days.

What's this now? What class is meant to he an identity? While we're at it, what apples are oranges?

 

[LDC]

this thread is far too confusing.

Since you seem to have 'liked' some of the shit-politics-incoherent-drivel they've spouted in the last few pages I hope that it's the confused bit of you that's been doing that.

 

[lucillemara]

What's this now? What class is meant to he an identity? While we're at it, what apples are oranges?

no fucksticks can you read?

"class" as identity politics has already been discussed.

 

[mojo pixy]

no fucksticks can you read?

"class" as identity politics has already been discussed.

Yeah but not by you. Is angry but confused an identity or a class?

 

[lucillemara]

what do you want me to say? the use of "working class" as code for "racist white man regardless of occupation or relation to capital" is ubiquitous on left, right and centre. then liberals accuse anyone talking about class as being racist sexists, and other liberals and some leftists use "identity politics" to dismiss feminism, anti-racism, queer politics etc altogether. I've had both multiple times. it's a problem whether people want to admit it or not. and there's a hell of a lot of equivocation between good critiques of idpol and this kind of bullshit, which makes it harder to critique without being accused of idpol (or racism) yourself.

 

[lucillemara]

angry but confused is the default mode of being in the 21st century so you can't blame it on me

 

[butchersapron]

Angry confused but lazy isn't compulsory. Read the thread

 

[lucillemara]

I've read enough to get the gist. I know my points have already been made. I know the majority view here disagrees with me. I'm still not comfortable with the general tone. so I'm good thanks.

 

[TruXta]

I've read enough to get the gist. I know my points have already been made. I know the majority view here disagrees with me. I'm still not comfortable with the general tone. so I'm good thanks.

So what's the point of your being here? We're not a fucking group therapy session.

 

[butchersapron]

I've read enough to get the gist. I know my points have already been made. I know the majority view here disagrees with me. I'm still not comfortable with the general tone. so I'm good thanks.

No you haven't.

And you haven't put forward a view for anyone to really disagree with. More a confusing incoherent set of mutually exclusive rants that you've backtracked or ran away for or denied when challenged.

 

[lucillemara]

here's my view: the macho left abuses critiques of liberal idpol to attack and silence things that are neither liberal nor identity politics. literal fascists have adopted the term. people should avoid using it in similar ways, which they do, and I have provided evidence. I fail to see what I have said that is mutually exclusive. you disagree with me so you take the most pedantic uncharitable reading of what I have said. I'm not trying to have a debate, I'm making assertions.

 

[lucillemara]

So what's the point of your being here? We're not a fucking group therapy session.

to stir shit up. to vent my frustration at the socially conservative left. because I'm bored and have nothing else to do. because I would be more involved in left activism if this shit wasn't everywhere. because I can. because I haven't been banned yet.

 

[butchersapron]

John Major's children.

Shit well and truly stirred up. That CPGB-ML shit totally crashed peoples world views.

 

[butchersapron]

here's my view: the macho left abuses critiques of liberal idpol to attack and silence things that are neither liberal nor identity politics. literal fascists have adopted the term. people should avoid using it in similar ways, which they do, and I have provided evidence. I fail to see what I have said that is mutually exclusive. you disagree with me so you take the most pedantic uncharitable reading of what I have said. I'm not trying to have a debate, I'm making assertions.

Avoid using what?

 

[lucillemara]

critiques of liberal idpol to attack and silence things that are neither liberal nor identity politics

 

[butchersapron]

Very authoritarian this - more than a hint of the individualist anarchist elitism about it. There are genuine critiques of identity politics but only i am allowed to both judge what they are and make them. No one else can be trusted to do so, or have malevolent motives if they do.

It's juvenile. Open the door.

 

[butchersapron]

critiques of liberal idpol to attack and silence things that are neither liberal nor identity politics

That's the 'it' in your latest set of 'assertions'? That people should avoid doing bad things. Should they also try and do good things?

 

[lucillemara]

Very authoritarian this - more than a hint of the individualist anarchist elitism about it. There are genuine critiques of identity politics but only i am allowed to both judge what they are and make them. No one else can be trusted to do so, or have malevolent motives if they do.

It's juvenile. Open the door.

what's wrong with individualism? it's not in conflict with collectivism. I don't know where I have said anything resembling your paraphrase.

That's the 'it' in your latest rant? That people should avoid doing bad things. Should they also try and do good things?

yes. I don't know why you think that's trivial.

 

[butchersapron]

You haven't said it because you don't understand that it's what your attempt at a summing up of your assertions amounts to. That's because you're proudly and boastfully all over the shop.

I think something so trivial and banal doesn't really 'stir shit up' - priests do that crap 24-7. So well done, priest.

 

[butchersapron]

Birthday cards too.

 

[Shechemite]

critiques of liberal idpol to attack and silence things that are neither liberal nor identity politics

How these things ‘silenced’?

 

[butchersapron]

...and what are they?

 

[TruXta]

to stir shit up. to vent my frustration at the socially conservative left. because I'm bored and have nothing else to do. because I would be more involved in left activism if this shit wasn't everywhere. because I can. because I haven't been banned yet.

If you want to stir things up I find it helpful to come with some intelligible content. No one has a clue what you're on about.

 

[lucillemara]

How these things ‘silenced’?

by exclusion, by condescension, by elision, sometimes by actual rape and death threats

 

[rekil]

I fear that twitter and its malign bubbleness is a factor in this display.

 

[butchersapron]

I fear that twitter and its malign bubbleness is a factor in this display.

My first thoughts were (mentally) house/twitter bound private school girl, then the repeated references to wanting to do activism or similar added to increasingly bold assertions made it clear - they are terrified. They need to open the door...

 

[lucillemara]

of course, I'm a middle class lifestylist idealist who doesn't understand how the real world works, mark fisher has taught you well.

 

[butchersapron]

Surrounded by the internet. And elephant editions.