Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.

[butchersapron]

And of course, it was many of gammonish leftyboys posting on this very thread who had been pointing out that the orthodox left's - meaning the SWP really - rhetorical embrace of identity politics post 2001 was going to lead to many nasty outcomes. The delta affair and the way it was dealt with by many in the party bore this out on individual/party level. Leaving aside the wider problems.

 

[lucillemara]

any reservations in participating in a discourse which is routinely abused to shut vulnerable people down? even if you were well intentioned and correct on all matters of fact in any specific instance?

this is a public forum, I'm not reading 70+ pages of whining to get maybe 10 good points and lots and lots of whining about guardian liberals being mean to white men, the backbone of the working class, I am saying what I have wanted to say for years

 

[butchersapron]

Well, i'm not going to accept that this discourse is doing that. And you're unable to show how it is as you're too arrogant to even minimally engage with it.

Good for you. Bye.

 

[lucillemara]

good night then

if when you come across complaints of identity politics they are accompanied by blokey sneering at best and rape threats at worst you make associations. it makes you not want to skim through the shit looking for gold that may not be there. I don't give a shit about the london media clique associated with idpol here - these were my first encounters with the phrase, men loudly shouting down anyone who challenged their dominance and criticised their abusive mates. I'm not sorry for being suspicious.

 

[lucillemara]

just fucking ban the phrase form left discourse so people say what they actually mean instead of insinuating and generalising and talking past each other

 

[lucillemara]

(CPGB-ML)

this is what happens
fuck the anti-idpol left

 

[danny la rouge]

Fuck the CPBG-ML, and their Assadist sympathies (which is about all I know about them). Fuck "Comrade" Delta and his enablers. I haven't read Kill All Normies, and know very little about Nagel, except second hand accounts. But from what I hear, she can probably get to fuck too.

So, that's the getting to fuck out of the way, lucillemara. Do you have any actual criticism of any actual positions taken by anyone on these boards, or did you just drop in to complain about people that nobody here supports and positions that nobody here takes?

 

[butchersapron]

...and to reduce all politics to irrelevant left groups.

 

[Pickman's model]

(CPGB-ML)

this is what happens
fuck the anti-idpol left

there are more people in the rockingham arms in the elephant and castle as i type than would attend the cpgb-ml congress.

 

[butchersapron]

...and to reduce all politics to irrelevant left groups.

There's a quote in a very anti-ID politics book that goes:

From where we sit as academics, on our comfortable ledge as surplus wage workers in the educational bureaucracy, reasonably well paid to do little more than reproduce a humanitarian worldview by levering its carefully selected cultural issues and approved post-political solutions to the top of the agenda, 'the left' might appear to be alive and in rude health. Enriched and enlivened by its new focus on cultural diversity rather than the dour and intractable neoliberal economy, to some it might even appear stronger than ever, about to regroup itself into a truly potent force and once more become the agent of history. However, for many of the old working class, especially those who occupy the old Labour heartlands, 'the left today is totally irrelevant. It can no longer effect real change, and it can no longer be considered a substantive force in the world. It appears only as a optical illusion from all angles but their own, like an image on an old lenticular novelty card.

I suspect that sort of thing may be going on here. (The rise of the Right: English nationalism and the transformation of working-class politics btw)

 

[danny la rouge]

there are more people in the rockingham arms in the elephant and castle as i type than would attend the cpgb-ml congress.

Never been to either, but I take your word for it.

For what it's worth, lucillemara, I'm happy to debate things I may be wrong about. That's how we learn. My position on lots of things has been changed by honest debate on these boards over the years. I know very well that I've made mistakes over the years, and will continue to do so. As a human being, I don't always get it right. So by all means pick up on things I've said, and if I can I'll try to engage with you on them. But I'm afraid I have no experience of the London-based micro-left factions you're referencing.

An example of something I was probably wrong about: I did initially think you were a former member of these boards (initially I was thinking beats and pieces or ralph llama), but the more I read your replies here the more I think you're probably new here.

With that in mind, I can recommend some background reading to catch you up on the thread if you like.

 

[Idris2002]

Fuck the CPBG-ML, and their Assadist sympathies (which is about all I know about them). Fuck "Comrade" Delta and his enablers. I haven't read Kill All Normies, and know very little about Nagel, except second hand accounts. But from what I hear, she can probably get to fuck too.

So, that's the getting to fuck out of the way, lucillemara. Do you have any actual criticism of any actual positions taken by anyone on these boards, or did you just drop in to complain about people that nobody here supports and positions that nobody here takes?

Nagel's alright. KAN is flawed in places, and reads like it was dictated over breakfast, but I find its basic conclusions sound.

 

[lucillemara]

basic conclusions are SJWs caused fascism by being mean to 4chan nazis. she is friends with richard spencer. she gets a pass because she knows how to pander to macho socdem podcast scumbags with secret reservations about feminism etc. fuck her and anyone who thinks she's remotely acceptable.

 

[lucillemara]

Fuck the CPBG-ML, and their Assadist sympathies (which is about all I know about them). Fuck "Comrade" Delta and his enablers. I haven't read Kill All Normies, and know very little about Nagel, except second hand accounts. But from what I hear, she can probably get to fuck too.

So, that's the getting to fuck out of the way, lucillemara. Do you have any actual criticism of any actual positions taken by anyone on these boards, or did you just drop in to complain about people that nobody here supports and positions that nobody here takes?

my basic problem is anti-idpol stuff has been used for years as a successful trojan horse for fascism, and I am puzzled why so much of the left is up in arms about irrelevant uni culture war bullshit that I rarely come across when this is happening so much more, and frankly why this discourse is tolerated at all at this point in circles that fancy themselves dedicated to liberation

you know trump supporters have picked up the phrase to add to their collection, like they did with PC and SJW. nice going left.

 

[Idris2002]

basic conclusions are SJWs caused fascism by being mean to 4chan nazis. she is friends with richard spencer. she gets a pass because she knows how to pander to macho socdem podcast scumbags with secret reservations about feminism etc. fuck her and anyone who thinks she's remotely acceptable.

Thank you dear, but you have delighted us enough already.

 

[Idris2002]

my basic problem is anti-idpol stuff has been used for years as a successful trojan horse for fascism, and I am puzzled why so much of the left is up in arms about irrelevant uni culture war bullshit that I rarely come across when this is happening so much more, and frankly why this discourse is tolerated at all at this point in circles that fancy themselves dedicated to liberation

you know trump supporters have picked up the phrase to add to their collection, like they did with PC and SJW. nice going left.

"For years"? You're about 15 - how would you know?

 

[butchersapron]

my basic problem is anti-idpol stuff has been used for years as a successful trojan horse for fascism, and I am puzzled why so much of the left is up in arms about irrelevant uni culture war bullshit that I rarely come across when this is happening so much more, and frankly why this discourse is tolerated at all at this point in circles that fancy themselves dedicated to liberation

you know trump supporters have picked up the phrase to add to their collection, like they did with PC and SJW. nice going left.

Why don't you read the thread - it might just burst your self-obsessed bubble.

 

[Pickman's model]

my basic problem is anti-idpol stuff has been used for years as a successful trojan horse for fascism

i think your basic problem is deeper than that

 

[butchersapron]

my basic problem is anti-idpol stuff has been used for years as a successful trojan horse for fascism, and I am puzzled why so much of the left is up in arms about irrelevant uni culture war bullshit that I rarely come across when this is happening so much more, and frankly why this discourse is tolerated at all at this point in circles that fancy themselves dedicated to liberation

you know trump supporters have picked up the phrase to add to their collection, like they did with PC and SJW. nice going left.

Contemporary fascism is actually the best example that there is of the many problems with identity politics rather than being anti-identity politics btw. All in the thread.

 

[lucillemara]

Contemporary fascism is actually the best example that there is of the many problems with identity politics rather than being anti-identity politics btw. All in the thread.

those things are not contradictory

 

[Idris2002]

those things are not contradictory

You're not on twitter now.

 

[TruXta]

Contemporary fascism is actually the best example that there is of the many problems with identity politics rather than being anti-identity politics btw. All in the thread.

I mean they call themselves identitarians for goodness sake

 

[butchersapron]

those things are not contradictory

What things aren't?

 

[Pickman's model]

I mean they call themselves identitarians for goodness sake

which you'd have thought would give the game away

 

[lucillemara]

What things aren't?

condemning identity politics and participating in it

 

[butchersapron]

condemning identity politics and participating in it

Like you making anti-identity politics into a (negative) identity you mean?

 

[lucillemara]

yes, plus the white/male/christian/etc identitarianism of the fascists

 

[butchersapron]

yes, plus the white/male/christian/etc identitarianism of the fascists

But you saying this is a trojan horse for fascism. Don't say it.

Do you see the problem?

 

[lucillemara]

what? I am generalising when I say anti identity politics - I don't mean all criticisms of the massive range of things that have been put under that label. I'm talking about a specific approach which dominates anti-idpol discourse, which is obsessively focused on certain minority groups (or by proxy- easy, irrelevant targets like middle class pundits butchering intersectionality used to insinuate and dismiss the issues while maintaining plausible deniability)

 

[TruXta]

Does anyone have any idea wtf they're on about?