Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.

[Magnus McGinty]

I haven't read all of this thread, which is 44 pages of largely pointless navel gazing.

Socialism is airy fairy bullshit, espoused by people who have far too much time on their hands, it has never worked as a political process anywhere, not in the long term. Even the Scandinavians are being forced to recognise that their socialist political model is no longer sustainable.


Tell me, how many of the population have read Das Kapital, outside of the privileged classes?

Identity politics? Give me strength.

If the amount of time spent spouting bullshit on this behemoth of a thread, had been spent physically helping those in society in greatest need, it would actually have achieved something.

The left make me so angry. So many do absolutely nothing concrete for their fellow man, and think wringing their hands is a positive contribution.

I'm a right winger, the opposite of most on the board. I do not like blowing my own trumpet but, on Christmas Day I'll be spending time in an Edinburgh Church assisting their efforts to help the homeless. We have given our pensions for December to the local food-bank and the children's toy appeal. (about £300.00)

I gave £300.00 to my son in law, because he is my grandson's father, and he has been ill. He didn't have heating, and his electricity was about to die. This to a man who on three separate occasions threatened to kill me.

We give between 5 and 10% of our income each year to charity. (As I've just retired, we need to see how much income we will have, then set a figure.)

As I said, I don't like blowing my own trumpet, and nothing like this will never be posted by me again.

If your identity is socialist, then ante up and prove it, in a tangible manner.

Rant over. Sorry.

It’s noble of you to give up your Christmas (and money) to help those who’ve been thrown under a bus by the system you support.

 

[TruXta]

I haven't read all of this thread, which is 44 pages of largely pointless navel gazing.

Socialism is airy fairy bullshit, espoused by people who have far too much time on their hands, it has never worked as a political process anywhere, not in the long term. Even the Scandinavians are being forced to recognise that their socialist political model is no longer sustainable.


Tell me, how many of the population have read Das Kapital, outside of the privileged classes?

Identity politics? Give me strength.

If the amount of time spent spouting bullshit on this behemoth of a thread, had been spent physically helping those in society in greatest need, it would actually have achieved something.

The left make me so angry. So many do absolutely nothing concrete for their fellow man, and think wringing their hands is a positive contribution.

I'm a right winger, the opposite of most on the board. I do not like blowing my own trumpet but, on Christmas Day I'll be spending time in an Edinburgh Church assisting their efforts to help the homeless. We have given our pensions for December to the local food-bank and the children's toy appeal. (about £300.00)

I gave £300.00 to my son in law, because he is my grandson's father, and he has been ill. He didn't have heating, and his electricity was about to die. This to a man who on three separate occasions threatened to kill me.

We give between 5 and 10% of our income each year to charity. (As I've just retired, we need to see how much income we will have, then set a figure.)

As I said, I don't like blowing my own trumpet, and nothing like this will never be posted by me again.

If your identity is socialist, then ante up and prove it, in a tangible manner.

Rant over. Sorry.

When were Scandinavian countries ever socialist?

 

[chilango]

I haven't read all of this thread, which is 44 pages of largely pointless navel gazing.

Socialism is airy fairy bullshit, espoused by people who have far too much time on their hands, it has never worked as a political process anywhere, not in the long term. Even the Scandinavians are being forced to recognise that their socialist political model is no longer sustainable.


Tell me, how many of the population have read Das Kapital, outside of the privileged classes?

Identity politics? Give me strength.

If the amount of time spent spouting bullshit on this behemoth of a thread, had been spent physically helping those in society in greatest need, it would actually have achieved something.

The left make me so angry. So many do absolutely nothing concrete for their fellow man, and think wringing their hands is a positive contribution.

I'm a right winger, the opposite of most on the board. I do not like blowing my own trumpet but, on Christmas Day I'll be spending time in an Edinburgh Church assisting their efforts to help the homeless. We have given our pensions for December to the local food-bank and the children's toy appeal. (about £300.00)

I gave £300.00 to my son in law, because he is my grandson's father, and he has been ill. He didn't have heating, and his electricity was about to die. This to a man who on three separate occasions threatened to kill me.

We give between 5 and 10% of our income each year to charity. (As I've just retired, we need to see how much income we will have, then set a figure.)

As I said, I don't like blowing my own trumpet, and nothing like this will never be posted by me again.

If your identity is socialist, then ante up and prove it, in a tangible manner.

Rant over. Sorry.

What a shit post from start to finish.

 

[killer b]

Socialism isn't an identity, it's the hammer we use to crush our enemies.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I haven't read all of this thread, which is 44 pages of largely pointless navel gazing.

Socialism is airy fairy bullshit, espoused by people who have far too much time on their hands, it has never worked as a political process anywhere, not in the long term. Even the Scandinavians are being forced to recognise that their socialist political model is no longer sustainable.

Twat. The Scandinavian political systems aren't socialist (except to right-wing Americans), they're social-democratic, which is an entirely different thing, more akin to classic 20th-century liberalism.

Tell me, how many of the population have read Das Kapital, outside of the privileged classes?

Probably at least a couple of million people outside of the privileged classes. My mate Andre, for example. My nan (rest her soul) for another. Both proper working class auto-didacts.

Identity politics? Give me strength.

If the amount of time spent spouting bullshit on this behemoth of a thread, had been spent physically helping those in society in greatest need, it would actually have achieved something.

The left make me so angry. So many do absolutely nothing concrete for their fellow man, and think wringing their hands is a positive contribution.

What makes you think that many of us don't, you self-righteous prick?

I'm a right winger, the opposite of most on the board. I do not like blowing my own trumpet but, on Christmas Day I'll be spending time in an Edinburgh Church assisting their efforts to help the homeless. We have given our pensions for December to the local food-bank and the children's toy appeal. (about £300.00)

I gave £300.00 to my son in law, because he is my grandson's father, and he has been ill. He didn't have heating, and his electricity was about to die. This to a man who on three separate occasions threatened to kill me.

We give between 5 and 10% of our income each year to charity. (As I've just retired, we need to see how much income we will have, then set a figure.)

As I said, I don't like blowing my own trumpet, and nothing like this will never be posted by me again.

If your identity is socialist, then ante up and prove it, in a tangible manner.

Rant over. Sorry.

I do community work all year round, everything from helping neighbours with odd jobs, to helping them fill out forms, and chase up benefits claims. I also donate regularly (in goods) to the local foodbank, even though I'm disabled and my only income is from benefits and a (very small, as in less than £100 a month, Civil Service pension). I don't need some twat who IS blowing his own trumpet, making assumptions about people based on their politics. The fact is that if you're working class, you're more likely to engage in community and charitable work.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Thats all well and good but if capitalism is so sustainable , non bullshit, and so good for people who are time hungry etc then why are you having to donate all this time and money to these causes for people in need? At least those on the left want to try and eradicate the causes of homelessness, poverty , fuel poverty etc. There a long history of Tory philanthropy which I admire and would encourage but surely the question is why so many are in need and what could be done to reduce and eventually eliminate these problems ?

Quite. Any charity, however well-intentioned, is just a sticking plaster.

 

[chilango]

Quite. Any charity, however well-intentioned, is just a sticking plaster.

At best.

There’s arguments that charity fulfils a far more damaging function than that.

But that’s for another thread.

 

[J Ed]

The Fields sisters do a really good job last week (on jacobin radio here ) on the assumptions and politics behind his and others white primordialism/whiteness/afro-pessimism approach and the identarian and old-school racist tropes that it has to rely on - and of course they extend this to modern liberal anti-racism/'race first left' and tie it to the evacuation of politics, of a politics of class from that anti-racism. Well worth the listen - despite the wobbly start where the host gets the central idea of their Racecraft book (racism produces race) the wrong way round.

I meant to post this earlier in the week. I second that it is well worth a listen.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Identity politics? Give me strength.

You identify as British and also a Christian don’t you?

 

[ViolentPanda]

At best.

There’s arguments that charity fulfils a far more damaging function than that.

But that’s for another thread.

Which is why I didn't try to make that particular argument.

 

[seventh bullet]

Socialism isn't an identity, it's the hammer we use to crush our enemies.

And Communism is not love.

 

[mojo pixy]

.
I have decided that it was wrong to post this. It disclosed information that should never have been disclosed.

Matthew 6:1

“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven."

This replacement for that post is definitely the smuggest thing I've seen here in a while, so well done indeed.
I preferred the bit about doing christmas dinner for homeless people on christmas day.

 

[chilango]

.
I have decided that it was wrong to post this. It disclosed information that should never have been disclosed.

Matthew 6:1

“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven."

Your arrogance and your contempt for other people was clear in the original post. People who you knew nothing about and openly stated you couldn’t be bothered to find anything about.

That’s why it was “wrong” to post what you did.

The bible quote you chosen to replace it with is telling.

It suggests that you are refraining from showing off your righteousness in fear of not receiving some reward. Motivation huh?

Not for one second do you seem to be questioning your own righteousness however.

I suggest that you spend some time reading around the boards and taking in just how much concrete “stuff is done” by so many others (many of whom would be considered “left” or socialists).

Perhaps then an apology would be appropriate.

 

[ska invita]

This is great.

Ta-Nehisi Coates is the neoliberal face of the black freedom struggle | Cornel West

Ta-Nehisi Coates Deletes Twitter Account Amid Feud With Cornel West

 

[Treacle Toes]

This is great.

Ta-Nehisi Coates is the neoliberal face of the black freedom struggle | Cornel West

What is great about it iyo?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

.

 

[Beats & Pieces]

[

 

[J Ed]

What is great about it iyo?

I think that what I like about it is that it encapsulates well what I think are critiques of a particular approach both to politics itself and the world, an approach which to be fair to Coates he is less guilty of than many. Like most people who have read him, I think that Coates is a really good writer. However what I do not like about his approach is the way in which, as West points out, power is warped. Anything that is worth happening politically happens in the upper echelons of society.

Unlike most prominent political commenators Coates voted for Sanders. On the other hand, as West points out, like many successful American political commentators Coates appears agnostic on both US foreign policy and neoliberal economics. Quite frankly I am sick of this approach which is the dominant one in our country and theirs. No matter how sophisticated the writing or political analysis and in Coates' case both are very sophisticated indeed, it reduces politics to a series of good and bad celebrities which we can jeer and boo but at the end of the day cannot really hope to change too much. It is a narrowing perspective which forecloses any real hope of change.

While it isn't mentioned in the article, or is only really mentioned in passing, I regard what Coates does on foreign policy as a mixture of tactical ignorance and sophistry. What he writes in defence of Israel is quite clever, and in turn I find the deployment of that sort of sophistry quite ugly given what it is defending. An example...

The Negro Sings Of Zionism

As a dude who came up banging Malcolm's "Ballot or The Bullet" like it was the Wu-Tang Forever, who recited Garvey's "Look For Me In The Whirlwind" at the school assembly, Israel is like a parallel universe, what Liberia could have been with the alteration of a few key historical variables. In Israel, cats like me see the shadows of another choice. Then we cut on "Flavor Of Love" and realize that it could not have been any other way.

Beyond that, Coates does not mention Obama's murderous policies in the Middle-East and Latin America, both of which were a continuation of GWB's policies and are now being continued by Trump which is fitting since the Obama administration put Trump like figures in power in the Middle-East and Latin America whenever it was feasibly possible to do so. What sort of analysis which claims to explore oppression in anything other than the most narrow confines ignores that?

I think that actually Obama's current trajectory calls for more not less analysis of this, since it seems to consist of being paid for services rendered by these people. These people being, for example, the people in parliament and their backers who jeered the social democrat President Dilma Roussef about being raped by police torturers while she was a resistance fighter against another US backed dictatorship in Brazil. They got the green light from the Obama admin, and now he is getting paid for that. Likewise, in 2009 there was a US backed coup in Honduras against a democratically elected government which was implementing social democratic reforms.

The Obama administration ensured that the government could not return to contest elections and then in response to widespread police repression which specifically targeted women, liberals, social democrats, trade unionists, indigenous peoples and ecologists they rewarded the post-coup government with massive state aid and training of that same police. The police forces that now, with the support the of Trump admin, are shooting working-class people who are protesting another recently stolen election.

Where does 'We were 8 years in power' fit into all this? For Coates it seemingly doesn't at all. This obviously frustrates West, and I share his frustration.

 

[butchersapron]

The Fields sisters do a really good job last week (on jacobin radio here ) on the assumptions and politics behind his and others white primordialism/whiteness/afro-pessimism approach and the identarian and old-school racist tropes that it has to rely on - and of course they extend this to modern liberal anti-racism/'race first left' and tie it to the evacuation of politics, of a politics of class from that anti-racism. Well worth the listen - despite the wobbly start where the host gets the central idea of their Racecraft book (racism produces race) the wrong way round.

I meant to post this earlier in the week. I second that it is well worth a listen.

Now a really interesting companion piece up from the rapidly collapsing other tradition: Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor on Recovering Identity Politics from Neoliberalism. Nicely outlines how the work of the combahee collective and crenshaw ended up turning into the identity politics monsters we see today - against the express intentions and politics of both - and how neo-liberalism now owns this stuff. They key being identified as the evacuation of class from the picture of social reality. Really good to see the tide turning from within this tradition.

BTW coates gets another going over in this one - even pro-identity politics types can see what his stuff means. Best pieces i've read on him whilst i'm here are:

The Birthmark of Damnation: Ta-Nehisi Coates and the Black Body
Idylls of the Liberal: The American Dreams of Mark Lilla and Ta-Nehisi Coates

 

[redsquirrel]

The Birthmark of Damnation: Ta-Nehisi Coates and the Black Body
Idylls of the Liberal: The American Dreams of Mark Lilla and Ta-Nehisi Coates

Not got the second one yet but the first one is excellent. Insightful and inspiring.

 

[mojo pixy]

It has genuinely been my experience that the more vocal proponents of identity politics are well-off university students, postgraduates, academics etc. I always think it's a style of politics which could only thrive among the economically privileged. It requires treating class as an identity, equal to gender/race/sexuality/ability, rather than a set of structured material relations. Convenient if you've had a sheltered life but want to be in the oppressed group.

Sorry for the tangent this would be better on the identity politics thread.

I decided to post this here, from the transgender thread because it makes a good point. In my experience too, identitypolitics can serve as a useful vehicle for quite un-oppressed people from relatively privileged backgrounds and with the benefit of a good education, to put themselves in an oppressed group whether they belong there or not.

 

[krtek a houby]

I decided to post this here, from the transgender thread because it makes a good point. In my experience too, identitypolitics can serve as a useful vehicle for quite un-oppressed people from relatively privileged backgrounds and with the benefit of a good education, to put themselves in an oppressed group whether they belong there or not.

This has me all

Are you saying that some people are seeking to be oppressed?

And what is the criteria for belonging? Who judges whether one belongs or not?

Sorry if I've picked this up wrongly.

 

[mojo pixy]

Not seeking to be oppressed, but seeking some kind of moral high ground IMO. Adopting an oppressed identity is a shortcut to a position of virtue.

 

[krtek a houby]

Not seeking to be oppressed, but seeking some kind of moral high ground IMO. Adopting an oppressed identity is a shortcut to a position of virtue.

Is this what's meant by "virtue signalling"? Another term I've only recently heard and usually by the right wing.

Can a person "adopt" an oppressed identity if they have been the victim of physical/verbal/sexual abuse, regarldess of their class? Surely they are already oppressed?

 

[butchersapron]

Note the use of belonging by krtek to describe an oppression derived identity.

 

[Sunset Tree]

I decided to post this here, from the transgender thread because it makes a good point. In my experience too, identitypolitics can serve as a useful vehicle for quite un-oppressed people from relatively privileged backgrounds and with the benefit of a good education, to put themselves in an oppressed group whether they belong there or not.

I've seen enough digs at 'white males' coming from white women studying or working at elite universities to last a lifetime.

Their online identity is one of a fierce lefty radical punching up against an oppressive class. Point out they are in a privileged class and get accused of class reductionism.

 

[Sunset Tree]

It was covered in some of the excellent articles posted in this thread. You are progressive (or oppressive) by virtue of your gender/race identity alone.

There was a recent popular tweet about how we've let white men try at being politicians and they fucked it up, now it's time for women and POC to try. It's the type of people not the systems of wealth and power.

 

[krtek a houby]

It was covered in some of the excellent articles posted in this thread. You are progressive (or oppressive) by virtue of your gender/race identity alone.

There was a recent popular tweet about how we've let white men try at being politicians and they fucked it up, now it's time for women and POC to try. It's the type of people not the systems of wealth and power.

Aren't white males in the UK power system usually serving themselves, though? Not just in politics but the whole establishment?

 

[Sunset Tree]

Aren't white males in the UK power system usually serving themselves, though? Not just in politics but the whole establishment?

There is an assumption that white women or POC would be more progressive. We've had plenty of women politicians and they weren't automatically more progressive (dare I invoke Thatcher). They are serving an economic system.

Putting representatives of different identity groups into the establishment will not bring progressive change. It certainly couldn't be considered a 'left-wing' aim. Yet many identity politics proponents view themselves as being on the left.

 

[krtek a houby]

There is an assumption that white women or POC would be more progressive. We've had plenty of women politicians and they weren't automatically more progressive (dare I invoke Thatcher). They are serving an economic system.

Putting representatives of different identity groups into the establishment will not bring progressive change. It certainly couldn't be considered a 'left-wing' aim. Yet many identity politics proponents view themselves as being on the left.

Yes, that's possible but should the status quo remain in heavily weighted favor of white, upper/middle class males?

If so, you just tend to get the same old same old... imho, natch.