Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.

[Sunset Tree]

Yes, that's possible but should the status quo remain in heavily weighted favor of white, upper/middle class males?

If so, you just tend to get the same old same old... imho, natch.

I'm not against equal representation in parliament. More woman and POC is not a bad thing. Perhaps it could make a different on some issues of social liberalism. It's not exactly left wing radicalism though. Yet for the IDPol 'left' these are the issues of concern.

 

[krtek a houby]

I'm not against equal representation in parliament. More woman and POC is not a bad thing. Perhaps it could make a different on some issues of social liberalism. It's not exactly left wing radicalism though. Yet for the IDPol 'left' these are the issues of concern.

I can only imagine that for some people of color etc, it's quite frustrating to see the same old elitist, white faces spouting the same crap that bears no relation to their lives and everyday experience.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I can only imagine that for some people of color etc, it's quite frustrating to see the same old elitist, white faces spouting the same crap that bears no relation to their lives and everyday experience.

And it wouldn’t be frustrating for anyone who shares their skin pigmentation? You see the problem then?

 

[krtek a houby]

And it wouldn’t be frustrating for anyone who shares their skin pigmentation? You see the problem then?

That goes without saying. But I was referring to ordinart people of colour, in this instance. Should there be more representation or should the status quo remain the same?

 

[mojo pixy]

Is this what's meant by "virtue signalling"? Another term I've only recently heard and usually by the right wing.

I don't think it's exactly virtue signalling, though I daresay self-identification in an oppressed group could be used as a virtue signal by someone before they begin an attack of some kind. "Well, speaking as a...." kind of thing.

Can a person "adopt" an oppressed identity if they have been the victim of physical/verbal/sexual abuse, regarldess of their class? Surely they are already oppressed?

I don't believe abuse necessarily = oppression. It depends who is abusing, what they're referencing in the abuse, how they're referencing it, what their aim is, and also what social structures exist around the abuser and abused to make it more oppressive, rather than just rude and hurtful.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

That goes without saying. But I was referring to ordinart people of colour, in this instance. Should there be more representation or should the status quo remain the same?

Did a woman prime minister change much for women?

 

[Sunset Tree]

Did a woman prime minister change much for women?

Similarly, did a black president change much for black men in America?

 

[krtek a houby]

I don't think it's exactly virtue signalling, though I daresay self-identification in an oppressed group could be used as a virtue signal by someone before they begin an attack of some kind. "Well, speaking as a...." kind of thing.



I don't believe abuse necessarily = oppression. It depends who is abusing, what they're referencing in the abuse, how they're referencing it, what their aim is, and also what social structures exist around the abuser and abused to make it more oppressive, rather than just rude and hurtful.

Is it wrong of people to bring their own experiences into a dialogue, though? To clarify how they see/deal with oppressions?

Say you go to work every day and some colleagues constantly make homophobic joke or comments about "the coloureds" etc. Is that not a form of oppression (if you're LGBT/poc) or is just rude and hurtful?

What if it affects your work, your well being, your outlook? Surely people like that, these colleagues, are attacking your very identity?

 

[krtek a houby]

Did a woman prime minister change much for women?

No, she managed to shaft a vast number of people. But conversely, should that result in the status quo remaining as it is?

Not all women are white tories wishing to destroy communities and unions, I'm pretty certain...

 

[Sunset Tree]

IDPol is also a technique for privileged people to dominate the political conversation. How many times have I heard 'when oppressed groups speak, your job is to listen', or similar? You can't have a conversation. Only the voice of the oppressed group is important, and if anyone else has an opinion they are taking the focus off people who are already maginalised. I'm not taking that seriously when the 'oppressed group' is an upper middle class law student at an elite university.

 

[krtek a houby]

Similarly, did a black president change much for black men in America?

Obama care, for what it's worth - helped the less well off. Black, white etc.

 

[Sunset Tree]

No, she managed to shaft a vast number of people. But conversely, should that result in the status quo remaining as it is?

Not all women are white tories wishing to destroy communities and unions, I'm pretty certain...

Is more women in power really a change in the status quo? If these women continue the same policies as we have now?

 

[campanula]

Yes, but if we just pop in a few more token groups, POC, women, disabled...all will be well...without the tiniest consideration of the social and material conditions which have ensured that all these tokenistic additions will still represent the same narrow class interests as the already entrenched white males

 

[Sunset Tree]

Obama care, for what it's worth - helped the less well off. Black, white etc.

Was that because he was black? Would Bernie Sanders be a less progressive choice because he is white? Basically I am saying the policies of the individual matter, not their race or gender identity.

 

[krtek a houby]

IDPol is also a technique for privileged people to dominate the political conversation. How many times have I heard 'when oppressed groups speak, your job is to listen', or similar? You can't have a conversation. Only the voice of the oppressed group is important, and if anyone else has an opinion they are taking the focus off people who are already maginalised. I'm not taking that seriously when the 'oppressed group' is an upper middle class law student at an elite university.

Only the working class voice is important? Nobody else can claim to have been brutalised by racism, sexism, homophobia?

 

[Sunset Tree]

Only the working class voice is important? Nobody else can claim to have been brutalised by racism, sexism, homophobia?

That is a real misrepresentation of what I've been saying

 

[krtek a houby]

Was that because he was black? Would Bernie Sanders be a less progressive choice because he is white? Basically I am saying the policies of the individual matter, not their race or gender identity.

Oh hells bells, Bernie has my vote. As well intentioned as Obama was, Sanders could have made a real difference. Relatively speaking.

 

[krtek a houby]

That is a real misrepresentation of what I've been saying

Ok then, when you say "when the 'oppressed group' is an upper middle class law student at an elite university."

I mean, that's a stereotype, right? Why assume when people complain of being oppressed that they would fall into that group?

 

[Red Cat]

hells bells indeed.

 

[Sunset Tree]

Ok then, when you say "when the 'oppressed group' is an upper middle class law student at an elite university."

I mean, that's a stereotype, right? Why assume when people complain of being oppressed that they would fall into that group?

Because if you're an upper middle class university student who claims to be oppressed by men, that is idiotic. You will be far more privileged and carry far more social capital than many men.

I'm not assuming it, I've seen it. It's rife in student politics for a start.

 

[Sunset Tree]

I'm saying 'men' and 'women' aren't cohesive, essentialist groupings, in terms of social structure. You aren't privileged by virtue of being a man, you aren't oppressed by virtue of being a woman.

 

[mojo pixy]

Is it wrong of people to bring their own experiences into a dialogue, though? To clarify how they see/deal with oppressions?

It may or may not be relevant to what's going on at that moment. I don't believe that insight gained through personal experience is necessarily more useful than other kinds of insight.

Say you go to work every day and some colleagues constantly make homophobic joke or comments about "the coloureds" etc. Is that not a form of oppression (if you're LGBT/poc) or is just rude and hurtful?

It might be oppressive or it might just be rude and hurtful, it depends on too many things for a generalisation to be in any way useful here, IMO.

What if it affects your work, your well being, your outlook? Surely people like that, these colleagues, are attacking your very identity?

This still wouldn't necessarily be oppression IMO, if you can walk out of that context and still legally and safely be exactly who you feel you are.

 

[krtek a houby]

It may or may not be relevant to what's going on at that moment. I don't believe that insight gained through personal experience is necessarily more useful than other kinds of insight.

Maybe not, but maybe it is just as valid?

 

[J Ed]

America was already great, though perhaps not now anymore.

 

[krtek a houby]

America was already great, though perhaps not now anymore.

All countries are great/shit, depending on one's views. Not sure what it has to do with this particular thread,mind.

 

[J Ed]

drunk driving may kill a lot of people, but it also helps a lot of people get to work on time, so, it;s impossible to say if its bad or not,

 

[krtek a houby]

drunk driving may kill a lot of people, but it also helps a lot of people get to work on time, so, it;s impossible to say if its bad or not,

great post well done keep it up

 

[mojo pixy]

It may or may not be relevant to what's going on at that moment. I don't believe that insight gained through personal experience is necessarily more useful than other kinds of insight.

Maybe not, but maybe it is just as valid?

It may be as valid.
It may be more valid, if the situation is a very personal and specific one.
It may be less valid, because there are natural limits to what any one person can know. Also, strong feelings affect a personal perspective, memory is not always as reliable as we'd like to think, and then again we aren't always completely honest / sincere. There are a lot of reasons why insight gained through personal experience could be useless or even harmfully wrong, ie not really insight, just a wrong opinion because of misunderstanding, wilful or otherwise.
etc.

it got long.

 

[Sunset Tree]

If it were just making sure people from minority groups have a chance to be heard, that would great. It has become only minority groups are allowed to be heard. I can see how it might have been founded in good intentions to make sure socially excluded groups are not drowned out. Like many aspects of identity politics it has mutated into something far less progressive and more divisive.

 

[bimble]

There's plenty of room for everyone in this game.