I hope the Prez don't suspect me of anything

[snorbury]

Whereas, in your case, the knowledgeably ignorant is trying convince the rest of us that he is familiar with the world outside his country's borders but only ends up making himself look like the pillock he truly is.

I speak your weight. Insert coin.

what pisses me about mears is he has no feelings

 

[spring-peeper]

snorbury: Is this what you were looking for? The human side?

With puffy face and red eyes, 12-year-old Mahmood was still fighting back tears as he told his story yesterday.

He had gotten the news in a phone call at dawn. His entire family -- mother, father, three sisters, three brothers -- had been killed by a coalition bombing attack on his village near Kandahar.

"I lost my family," he whispered between his sobs. "Now I am all alone."

Nearby, in an intensive-care hospital bed, his unconscious three-year-old cousin was twitching and panting for air. He, too, was a victim of the bombing. Two of his uncles were being treated in the same ward, both badly wounded, one in a coma...

The battle began in the village of Azizi, about 50 kilometres west of Kandahar, when the coalition attacked a group of Taliban gathering for a meeting.

"There was still resistance when coalition forces entered the building," Major Lundy (CDN) said. "Because the coalition forces were under pressure, and taking a lot of fire, there was a requirement to use any and all available means to stop that fire. It was a very intense fight. The Taliban felt they had to hide behind the Afghan people. It was rather cowardly on their part."

He acknowledged that the Taliban seemed stronger than expected. "We have noted that there have been sizable forces where perhaps we thought there were smaller forces."

Despite earlier reports of a coalition investigation into the deaths, he said nobody from the coalition is in the village to investigate the civilian deaths.

He also suggested that some of the injured civilians might have been Taliban fighters, although he acknowledged he had no evidence of it.

The battles here are becoming more intense daily.

Last week in the same district, Canadian troops called in a devastating air strike from a U.S. B-1 stealth bomber, which dropped a 500-pound bomb on a residential compound, killing an estimated 15 to 20 rebels, after an ambush in which Captain Nichola Goddard was killed.

Kandahar's provincial governor, Assadullah Khalid, tried to assuage local anger yesterday by visiting the hospital and handing out cash to injured victims. Each person was given the equivalent of about $450.

Mahmood, the boy whose family perished in the bombing, escaped death only because he was a student in Kandahar City, away from his village. At the hospital yesterday, he sobbed and wiped his eyes repeatedly.

He was clutching a plastic bag with three mangos that someone had given him.

Another survivor, 23-year-old Mohammed Rafiq, suffered injuries to his head and arm when his mud-brick house was hit by a bomb. He said the Taliban fighters had come to his village about two days earlier to demand food and shelter.

"They had heavy weapons and nobody could say anything against them." he said.

"They said they were coming here for a holy war. We can't say anything against them, and we can't say anything against the coalition."

The Taliban were about 30 metres away when the bomb landed on his house.

Abdul Baqi, an intensive-care doctor who treated the bombing victims, said the coalition should be more careful in its bombing operations.

"They killed many civilians by mistake," he said. "I'm not happy about it. They killed and injured many innocent people."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060523.AFGHAN23/TPStory/TPInternational/Asia/

 

[nino_savatte]

what pisses me about mears is he has no feelings

That's because, like all Randists, he is an automaton....a speak-your-weight machine full of pat remarks.

 

[spring-peeper]

I'm getting sick of reading paragraphs like this:

"The Taliban's method of taking refuge in homes within that village is a classic insurgent tactic that's been used for decades. If government troops hold their fire, the insurgents may escape to fight another day. If government forces open fire and kill the insurgents, they will also kill innocent people and turn many survivors against the government."

being used to excuse the civilian deaths.

The US knew how the Taleban would react, so they had a course of action planned. It would appear that they wanted to kill the Taleban at all costs.

Personally, I would rather have our troops wait and catch the Taleban another day than to have some airplane drop bombs on civilian homes.

I suppose that this shows the difference between US and Canadian priorities. Maybe this is why the Americans didn't ask for Canadian input into the mission. They told us that they would be attacking - I suppose that was nice of them.

 

[nino_savatte]

I would rather all foreign troops were out of Afghanistan...full stop.

 

[spring-peeper]

I would rather all foreign troops were out of Afghanistan...full stop.

The Afghan Army can't handle it on their own - yet.

Remember, two years of Taleban meant that the entire country lost two years of education. No new doctors, lawyers, teachers - nothing. The buildings were destroyed. We are just starting to see graduates. That's what the country needs - Afghans treating Afghans in Afghan hospitals. Same thing in the education field.

Afghan held an election and the current government was democratically elected. The government asked NATO for help with security. NATO set up ISAF - a way for the Afghan government to get foriegn military support. Canada provides support in the Kandahar province. We do what they ask and we do it their way. It is their country, remember.

What we are doing is a separate mission to what the Americans are doing. We are trying to help get some stability into the area so that everyone can concentrate on the other problems that this nation has to overcome. The Americans want the Taleban destroyed - their mission is called "Enduring Freedom".

You want all troops out? Right now, I'd settle for "Take your stupid little war on terror and play outside of Afghanistan. Leave the people alone!!!".

 

[nino_savatte]

The Afghan Army can't handle it on their own - yet.

Remember, two years of Taleban meant that the entire country lost two years of education. No new doctors, lawyers, teachers - nothing. The buildings were destroyed. We are just starting to see graduates. That's what the country needs - Afghans treating Afghans in Afghan hospitals. Same thing in the education field.

Afghan held an election and the current government was democratically elected. The government asked NATO for help with security. NATO set up ISAF - a way for the Afghan government to get foriegn military support. Canada provides support in the Kandahar province. We do what they ask and we do it their way. It is their country, remember.

What we are doing is a separate mission to what the Americans are doing. We are trying to help get some stability into the area so that everyone can concentrate on the other problems that this nation has to overcome. The Americans want the Taleban destroyed - their mission is called "Enduring Freedom".

You want all troops out? Right now, I'd settle for "Take your stupid little war on terror and play outside of Afghanistan. Leave the people alone!!!".

Afghanistan has suffered over 30 years of war. The fact that the US and its allies are there makes little difference in the final analysis. The country has been practically ungovernable since the 19th century.

I hate this attitude of western countries which says, "we know what is best for you".

 

[spring-peeper]

Afghanistan has suffered over 30 years of war. The fact that the US and its allies are there makes little difference in the final analysis. The country has been practically ungovernable since the 19th century.

I hate this attitude of western countries which says, "we know what is best for you".

Yes - over thirty years of foriegn meddling. The average age over there is forty. Most have never known the concept of peace. Sad isn't it? All that we are saying, is give peace a chance.

I can't seem to remember Canada using the "we know what is best for you" approach, though. What I do remember is Canada setting aside $900,000 for each region in the province to spend as they wish. The first regional meeting where the community leaders could sit and discuss the future of their region was held recently.

On the *evil* side of that, I wonder what would happen if one of the regions decided to build an opium processing plant with their money.....

 

[Major Tom]

It makes me wonder what the fuck we're trying to achieve in Afghanistan - the US surely know that they'll never turn Afghanistan into a fully functioning western style democracy.

For sure - its just an excuse to justify occupation - a step in the eventual encirclement of the former Russian empire - with that terribly useful by-product to help them fund the venture - oil.

 

[spring-peeper]

It makes me wonder what the fuck we're trying to achieve in Afghanistan - the US surely know that they'll never turn Afghanistan into a fully functioning western style democracy.

For sure - its just an excuse to justify occupation - a step in the eventual encirclement of the former Russian empire - with that terribly useful by-product to help them fund the venture - oil.

I thought the US was pulling out of Afghanistan.

 

[Major Tom]

I thought the US was pulling out of Afghanistan.

Maybe I should have said gain control and maintain control of rather than occupation.

It all amounts to the same thing - the US put a puppet government in power and give it shit loads of military support.

 

[mears]

Um, maybe the US shouldn't have provoked the Soviet Union into invading in the first place by covertly funding Mujahadeen in 1979.

Right. The Soviets had no choice. They had to invade and bomb the country back into the stone age. The Soviets had to create a situation where one and a half million afghans were displaced from their homes.

The Americans provoked it.

So following your logic, the Americans were similarly provoked by the Soviets and Chinese to fight in Vietnam and Korea. Since these countries were funding communist elements in both countries.

Uhm, maybe red china and the Soviets shouldn't have provoked America in the first place.

 

[mears]

Maybe I should have said gain control and maintain control of rather than occupation.

It all amounts to the same thing - the US put a puppet government in power and give it shit loads of military support.

Didn't the Afghans have an election deemed fair by the United Nations?

Seems to be some improvment over the Taliban.

 

[mears]

er, no and, er, no.


He reallly doesn't mind showing his utter ignorance does he?

But the Pakistani ISI was in fact responsible for creating the Taliban.

Do your research.

Its almost as if some around here remain intentionally ignorant.

 

[spring-peeper]

Maybe I should have said gain control and maintain control of rather than occupation.

It all amounts to the same thing - the US put a puppet government in power and give it shit loads of military support.

So - how do we help the Afghan people? Pull out?

 

[Major Tom]

Right. The Soviets had no choice. They had to invade and bomb the country back into the stone age. The Soviets had to create a situation where one and a half million afghans were displaced from their homes.

they certainly had to do something - given that an aggressive superpower was trying to subvert a government on the Soviet border.

So following your logic, the Americans were similarly provoked by the Soviets and Chinese to fight in Vietnam and Korea. Since these countries were funding communist elements in both countries.

I like to think that my logic is nowhere near as fucked up as yours appears to be

Uhm, maybe red china and the Soviets shouldn't have provoked America in the first place.

i thought this was the official US line.

Afghanistan was a deliberate policy of provocation - i find it hard to believe you're unaware of Zbignev Bzezhinski's revelations regarding this episode in your history.

 

[spring-peeper]

But the Pakistani ISI was in fact responsible for creating the Taliban.

Do your research.

Its almost as if some around here remain intentionally ignorant.

Wasn't the last comment from Pakistan telling Afghanistan to stop blaming their problem on someone else and get control of their borders?

Well, at least they are just yelling at each other instead of dropping bombs.

 

[Major Tom]

So - how do we help the Afghan people? Pull out?

I'm certain that our troops aren;t in there to help the Afghan people.

Maybe we should ask people in Afghanistan what they need us to do? And I don;t mean ask the government either.

 

[Major Tom]

But the Pakistani ISI was in fact responsible for creating the Taliban.

America often does its dirty work through a third party - that way it can deny it's responsible for just about anything.

 

[spring-peeper]

I'm certain that our troops aren;t in there to help the Afghan people.

Maybe we should ask people in Afghanistan what they need us to do? And I don;t mean ask the government either.

Sorry, but who are "your troops"?

So, we should jump into a jeep and roam around the country side and visit remote areas? Get to know the people and learn about their ways and customs.

Hey, how about after we have spoken to all different communities, we arrange for a regional meeting. We could have them all over and discuss what plans they have for their region. Then maybe, just to help them look after their own areas, how about we give the money, ohhh- say $900,000, and let them decide what they would like to do with it?

Would that be an acceptable way to help the citizens of this area?

 

[Major Tom]

Sorry, but who are "your troops"?

So, we should jump into a jeep and roam around the country side and visit remote areas? Get to know the people and learn about their ways and customs.

Hey, how about after we have spoken to all different communities, we arrange for a regional meeting. We could have them all over and discuss what plans they have for their region. Then maybe, just to help them look after their own areas, how about we give the money, ohhh- say $900,000, and let them decide what they would like to do with it?

Would that be an acceptable way to help the citizens of this area?

No I think we should continuing bombing the fuck out of them

actually it sounds good in theory - except i can think of a million ways a strategy like this can be fucked up if its run by vested interests in the UK or the US.

 

[spring-peeper]

No I think we should continuing bombing the fuck out of them

At least I'm offering a way to help...

Come on, you critized the current way of doing things. Let's hear what you would do.

btw - which country are you from? I still don't know which troops are yours. There are lot's of countries over there, you know.

 

[Major Tom]

At least I'm offering a way to help...

Come on, you critized the current way of doing things. Let's hear what you would do.

Does this count as criticism - I think its more me questioning the underlying aims of attacking, occupying and "democratising" Afghanistan:

It makes me wonder what the fuck we're trying to achieve in Afghanistan - the US surely know that they'll never turn Afghanistan into a fully functioning western style democracy.

For sure - its just an excuse to justify occupation - a step in the eventual encirclement of the former Russian empire - with that terribly useful by-product to help them fund the venture - oil.

 

[spring-peeper]

Does this count as criticism - I think its more me questioning the underlying aims of attacking, occupying and "democratising" Afghanistan:

Who is attacking Afghanistan?
Who is occupying Afghanistan?
If Afghanistan wants to choose democracy, who are you to stop them?

You never did pass comments on the "get out and meet the people" idea, btw. Do you think that it is a good idea? You know, what I posted in response to your "Maybe we should ask people in Afghanistan what they need us to do? And I don;t mean ask the government either." comment.

How do you propose to make sure that the people are listened to? Obviously, the idea of asking an elected government isn't acceptable to you.

 

[Major Tom]

Who is attacking Afghanistan?

er we did - or have you forgotten?

Who is occupying Afghanistan?

er, we are.

If Afghanistan wants to choose democracy, who are you to stop them?

I didn;t say I was trying to stop them - i'm just not sure they have chosen.

You never did pass comments on the "get out and meet the people" idea, btw. Do you think that it is a good idea? You know, what I posted in response to your "Maybe we should ask people in Afghanistan what they need us to do? And I don;t mean ask the government either." comment.

yes i did

How do you propose to make sure that the people are listened to?

Well clearly if I'm unable to answer this question in a way acceptable to you the answer must be to invade/ attack/ bomb them then and impose a western style democracy by using a miltiary occupation.

Obviously, the idea of asking an elected government isn't acceptable to you.

what you mean the pro-US/ UK stooges we provided for them to vote for?

 

[spring-peeper]

Major Tom, you are aware that the Afghan government is condemning the attack, right?

Afghan President Hamid Karzai has complained for more than two years that U.S. airstrikes that injure or kill civilians undermine his efforts at reconciliation. And after four years of war in southern and eastern Afghanistan, the insurgency is spreading.

After last fall's largely peaceful parliamentary elections, Karzai said it was time for a change of tactics and called on U.S.-led forces to "concentrate on where terrorists are trained, on their bases, on the supplies to them, on the money coming to them."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003012494_afghan23.html

 

[spring-peeper]

er we did - or have you forgotten?

er, we are.

I didn;t say I was trying to stop them - i'm just not sure they have chosen.

yes i did


Well clearly if I'm unable to answer this question in a way acceptable to you the answer must be to invade/ attack/ bomb them then and impose a western style democracy by using a miltiary occupation.

what you mean the pro-US/ UK stooges we provided for them to vote for?

We, we, we. Who are we?

 

[Major Tom]

Major Tom, you are aware that the Afghan government is condemning the attack, right?



http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003012494_afghan23.html

and?

 

[Major Tom]

We, we, we. Who are we?

Any of us who lives in a country that is supporting US policies in the middle east.

if you knew where i come from would that really change the argument.

tbh i'm pissed off with the slanging matches you get on here between US posters and UK posters each trying to blame the other person;s country for some atrocity or other.

We're all culpable.

 

[spring-peeper]

yes i did

I'm sorry, the only reference to my plan that I could find was

No I think we should continuing bombing the fuck out of them

actually it sounds good in theory - except i can think of a million ways a strategy like this can be fucked up if its run by vested interests in the UK or the US.

Sorry, I was missed the second part of your post.

As for my idea, Canada just did it!!!!

And we did it with OUR money, not the US or UK money, ours.