I am getting very annoyed with littering.

[stavros]

Round here generic fried chicken shop boxes are the biggest category of fast food litter.

To return to my earlier question, would a nominal tax on such items, as with the plastic bag tax, decrease the amount of packaging generated and by association the amount littered?

 

[coley]

Honestly I get you in that I think that most environmental problems are systematic. Certainly where I live and work (part of my job with a local charity is gardening to improve public spaces on local estates (yep I know all the issues with voluntary sector taking over what should be public services but its a wage) which also involves dealing with huge amounts of litter) that is a big part of it. It was already one of the dirtiest places for litter and flytipping in the country, but is now apparently the "worst litter hotspot" in the UK due to the fine efforts of the council in increasing charges for bulky waste, removing litter bins, cutting all kinds of services, making environmental services workers redundant, and fucking off the bin collectors so badly that they were working to rule for ages and the system still hasn't recovered! And obviously poverty and stress and disability and depression and addiction, and having a relatively transient population with people moving here from all over the world/the country (so having to learn a new system of dealing with rubbish) and people not staying here long all contribute. And dodgy landlords, local businesses that don't deal with waste properly, and flytippers coming from all over all make things worse too.

But dropping litter is still basically antisocial and a large portion of the time it could be avoided - I can guarantee that most of the crisp packets round here aren't accidentally dropped by someone with a bad back! And often when littering can't be avoided there is often less bad options which would not affect neighbours as much - leaving it next to a bin for example - which people don't always do. For example in planted areas I often come across ripped up, stinking bags of food waste, nappies, and general household stuff which has obviously come from someone's kitchen bin - now i can well imagine the situation where someone's wheelie bin is full or lost or they are confused about what bin to use - but in that situation could they not have put it in someone else's bin or a litter bin, or left it in the back lane, or next to a bin, or even on the side of the road, rather than push it into some bushes where the dogs, cats, rats, mice, flies, and foxes will get to it, and your neighbours get a nasty smell as they walk past and notices flies and rats but no-one can see what's actually causing the problem (and yes more council clean-ups would help but also not dumping stuff would help too). Its about having basic social solidarity with the people around you - and basic self-respect if its the place you live in.

And yeah I am angry when I see kids I know playing around dog shit and broken glass and rats, or when a neighbour with vision and mobility problems says they can't go out because of all the trip hazards (litter) on the pavement, or when my elderly neighbour gets litter lobbed into her backyard, or when more people I know have their houses infested with rats or mice or flies or cockroaches, or when someone dumps and industrial freezer directly outside my back gate so I can't open it, or I go to take my bin out and step in dogshit on my back step, or I find a rotting meat dumped in the back lane, or a mechanical meat slicer which a child could easily lose a finger in dumped by the side of the road. And I am angry at the council for not providing proper services and treating their workers badly, and the government for cutting council funding, and businesses that cause litter or flytip, and poverty and the causes of all the social problems, and the way social solidarity has been undermined. But I also don't see anything wrong with being angry at the people who are being absolutely antisocial.

The thing is its not the majority of people doing this. There's even a surprising number of people round here who you see sweeping their front yard/front and back steps, and often the pavement in front and behind their house every day - and those people don't necessarily have any less problems than the people doing the littering. And problems like addiction don't necessarily mean that people automatically make a mess - a few years ago the needle exchange more than halved the amount of needles found in public places in the city just by giving out portable sharps bins, and then putting up a monthly map (only viewable at the exchange, not circulated anywhere else) of where needles had been found - and service users living around hotspots mostly sorted out the problems between themselves. And loads of the litter is caused by people who have few problems - the massive amount of litter you see in the local park near student accommodation after any sunny day during term time for example. I think its perfectly reasonable to want your neighbours to treat their surrounding and people around them with respect, and to be disappointed and angry when they don't do this.

Spot on.

 

[coley]

To return to my earlier question, would a nominal tax on such items, as with the plastic bag tax, decrease the amount of packaging generated and by association the amount littered?

Why a "nominal tax"? stick a 25 % tax on all takeaways and fast food outlets, encourage people to prepare their own food.
ETA, stop regarding littering as a small issue and hammer those who litter, and also those who allow their dogs to Shyte at will.
Could mention the Horsey fraternity and their seemingly 'dispensation' to drop loads of shyte without any public outcry?
But then again, it could involve criticism of the 'non travelling' travelling community, best not to go there

 

[SpookyFrank]

To return to my earlier question, would a nominal tax on such items, as with the plastic bag tax, decrease the amount of packaging generated and by association the amount littered?

France has recently banned plastic cups and plates outright I believe, so there are steps that can be taken. I don't think a tax on fast food packaging is really gonna help though, because unlike plastic bags where you can take your own bag to the shop, nobody is gonna go to a fried chicken shop with their own plate and cutlery.

In general I don't think top-down solutions to anti-social behaviour ever work that well. What we should be aiming for is a situation where people give a shit about their neighbours and their environment, and that requires communities to provide both carrot and stick for themselves IMO.

 

[Celyn]

France has recently banned plastic cups and plates outright I believe, so there are steps that can be taken.

Didn't know that. Could be interesting to watch how that works out.

... unlike plastic bags where you can take your own bag to the shop, nobody is gonna go to a fried chicken shop with their own plate and cutlery.

They could scrunch up the litter and keep in pocket until they next see a bin.

 

[SpookyFrank]

They could scrunch up the litter and keep in pocket until they next see a bin.

But is an extra tax gonna make people morle likely to take their crap home with them?

 

[campanula]

I also think it is a slow generational thing...like seatbelts, or drunk driving...where we collectively shame litterers as the anti-social thing it really is. Quite apart from the physical damages to the environment, there is a mental corrosion speaking to contempt and disdain when we start to lose civic pride in ourselves, our communities, our locale - possibly because those deep roots have been cut as we become more transient, more internalised, less connected to place and space...but it seems to act as a precurser (at least in my mind) to greater heartlessness and lack of care which diminishes us as people. Yep, I know, it sounds laughably pompous, placing such importance on dropping rubbish in the street...but it is the invisible damage which does as much harm as the unpleasant evidence of inconsiderate selfishness.
Most depressing about the abandoned pushchair was the realisation that another generation was being raised without any of those social norms regarding our own (befouled) nests...which just connects to a deeper environmental decay.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Yep, I know, it sounds laughably pompous, placing such importance on dropping rubbish in the street...but it is the invisible damage which does as much harm as the unpleasant evidence of inconsiderate selfishness.

Not at all, what annoys me most about littering and fly tipping and similar abuses of public space is the attitude behind it, which can only spread if something isn't done to counter it. Noise pollution (particularly wankers in overpowered cars revving their engines for no fucking reason) is another big bugbear of mine, as it comes from the same failure to conisder the wellbeing of others.

 

[Tankus]

Wheelie bins up the valleys ....but in the Vale and around Cardiff it's just bare bin liners.....on bin day if the bags have gone out the night before .....massive well fed aggressive seagulls swoop down and shred them ....with the shit going everywhere..
Cardiff's seagull population 'could be the largest in the world'
Sometimes going to work on early shift walking through the back of grangetown on bin day ..crap everywhere...(are pizza boxes the rubbish equivalent of diced carrots in sick ??) .I can't believe why the refuse workers continually tolerate their job being made that much harder...and not anything being done by the council hierarchy to remedy it .....

I've now seen instances of it happening out in the vale...it's like the learned behaviour is being disseminated out into the gull diaspora

Or maybe they have studied the bin lorry routes and are hitting the different collection areas in advance for every week day carnage

Heh ..what did Hitchcock know ..?

 

[weltweit]

I was just in a corner of a faraway field.

There were empty drinks can there.

I blame teenagers!

 

[stavros]

I don't think a tax on fast food packaging is really gonna help though, because unlike plastic bags where you can take your own bag to the shop, nobody is gonna go to a fried chicken shop with their own plate and cutlery.

They could eat it inside the restaurant, using washable plates, cutlery and glasses/mugs.

One other side effect, not directly relevant to this thread topic, is that it could decrease the amount of this sort of food eaten, thus benefiting public health.

 

[campanula]

Not at all, what annoys me most about littering and fly tipping and similar abuses of public space is the attitude behind it,/QUOTE]

Yep, it isn't the thing itself (litter, noise) but the deeper selfishness. Someone upthread half jokingly suggested it was Thatcher's fault. Well yes, the Thatcher/Reagan economic shift did indeed usher in that whole 'no such thing as society', everyone for themselves sort of thing...which leaves many of us horribly adrift and isolated. Oddly, the 'personal responsibility' meme failed to attach itself to clearing up personal mess...unless paying (exploiting) someone else counts.

buggered up the quote thingy, apols SpookyF

 

[SpookyFrank]

Personal responibility was never an actual thing, just an excuse for not giving a shit about others. Hence every millionaire's delusion that they got where they are by hard work and gumption alone and were in no way helped along by societal factors which reward certain behaviours and exploit the general population to provide those rewards.

You've also got the kind of shithead who think it's OK to throw shit in the street because you're 'creating jobs' in the field of cleaning up your mess. The idea that making work for someone is a good thing certainly feels like a thatherite concept.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I was just in a corner of a faraway field.

There were empty drinks can there.

I blame teenagers!

If you were there, it wasn't far away at all. Quite the opposite.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Wheelie bins up the valleys ....but in the Vale and around Cardiff it's just bare bin liners.....on bin day if the bags have gone out the night before .....massive well fed aggressive seagulls swoop down and shred them ....with the shit going everywhere..
Cardiff's seagull population 'could be the largest in the world'
Sometimes going to work on early shift walking through the back of grangetown on bin day ..crap everywhere...(are pizza boxes the rubbish equivalent of diced carrots in sick ??) .I can't believe why the refuse workers continually tolerate their job being made that much harder...and not anything being done by the council hierarchy to remedy it .....

I've now seen instances of it happening out in the vale...it's like the learned behaviour is being disseminated out into the gull diaspora

Or maybe they have studied the bin lorry routes and are hitting the different collection areas in advance for every week day carnage

Heh ..what did Hitchcock know ..?

I'm entirely in favour of any massive seagull genocide programs anyone wants to dream up. Ghastly shrieking fuckers.

 

[Calamity1971]

I haven't lived a charmed life NoXion, but I do have respect for my surroundings. It costs fuck all.

 

[stavros]

It seems a Grauniad hack might be reading this thread.

 

[StoneRoad]

But is an extra tax gonna make people morle likely to take their crap home with them?

Probably not, but maybe it would pay for someone to clear up the litter ...

I reckon that about the only thing that would really help would be returnable cash deposits on cans / bottles and packaging (with presentation of the receipt)

 

[Sparkle Motion]

The litter wardens in Maidstone have all been suspended after fining a woman for feeding ducks. I expect they will be back next week, waiting near bus stops for people to drop fag ends.

 

[hash tag]

New to thread; I remember Bill Bryson started a big high profile anti litter campaign a while back Litter - Campaign to Protect Rural England
Whilst littering in towns is wrong littering the countryside annoys me more.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I expect they will be back next week, waiting near bus stops for people to drop fag ends.

Good. Anti-social scumbags treating our streets as their personal ashtray.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

New to thread; I remember Bill Bryson started a big high profile anti litter campaign a while back Litter - Campaign to Protect Rural England
Whilst littering in towns is wrong littering the countryside annoys me more.

What I just can not get my head round at all is litter in the deep countryside (if deep countryside is a thing?); I take the dog to a remote spot that has no public transport nearby and is a long way from anywhere much, you wouldn't stumble across it, you'd have to know it is there and make a special journey to get there. So you'd think that anyone who went to that effort would do so cos they appreciate the beauty of the spot. So why, just fucking why do they feel that its beauty would be enhanced by the scattering of a collection of Starbucks cups? And not just near the car park, but a good 20 minute walk away from any road. How the fuck does that even happen???

 

[Piers Gibbon]

I agree with lots of commenters - I think there are some changes we could make around recycling centres and bins and street cleaning. But yes it is still going to come down to taking responsibility as an individual. On that note we have bought a litter picker/grabber and have started doing occasional sweeps of the area, public footpaths/the pedestrian bridge etc (Hackney Wick, London). Twenty minutes to fill a massive binliner. People's responses when they see us are interesting - 99 percent is a lot of "cool/thanks/well done/must join you" but one guy said we shouldn't do it but keep badgering the council to do it. Personally I think there is some truth in the "broken window" theory around people feeling weirdly less selfish if they are ADDING to a pile of litter ie in our case keeping the streets and paths cleaner PLUS badgering the council is probably the best way to keep our own little patch as nice as possible. And we have identified one area that just desperately needs a bin (people keep carefully placing endless coffee cups and beer cans on top of a waist height BT box - so they KNOW it is litter but still want to get rid of it...)

 

[BigTom]

I agree with lots of commenters - I think there are some changes we could make around recycling centres and bins and street cleaning. But yes it is still going to come down to taking responsibility as an individual. On that note we have bought a litter picker/grabber and have started doing occasional sweeps of the area, public footpaths/the pedestrian bridge etc (Hackney Wick, London). Twenty minutes to fill a massive binliner. People's responses when they see us are interesting - 99 percent is a lot of "cool/thanks/well done/must join you" but one guy said we shouldn't do it but keep badgering the council to do it. Personally I think there is some truth in the "broken window" theory around people feeling weirdly less selfish if they are ADDING to a pile of litter ie in our case keeping the streets and paths cleaner PLUS badgering the council is probably the best way to keep our own little patch as nice as possible. And we have identified one area that just desperately needs a bin (people keep carefully placing endless coffee cups and beer cans on top of a waist height BT box - so they KNOW it is litter but still want to get rid of it...)

Take the bin bags and deposit them on your local councillor's doorsteps.

 

[Dogsauce]

But is an extra tax gonna make people morle likely to take their crap home with them?

It doesn't have to be a tax designed to change behaviour, it could be simply used to fund street cleaning and enforcement, in the same way that football clubs have to pay for the policing of their business. Polluter pays and all the that.

 

[stavros]

I can't find a link, but I'm sure I've read somewhere that the plastic bag tax, almost a year old, has been very successful in decreasing the number produced. You would hope it has also lessened the number being dumped as litter, although this is just my inference. With that in mind, would other behaviour-change taxes work, specifically with regard litter? For example, could a nominal fee be put on takeaway coffee cups, which I see all over my particular urban area? Like the plastic bags, there's an easy alternative for customers; china mugs in the retailer, to be later washed up.

Sorry for the bump and the self-quoting. It's not any kind of tax or government/authority scheme, but Costa are now collecting paper coffee cups, from themselves or any of their rivals, and taking them to a specialist firm who can separate the paper and plastic to allows the materials to be recycled.

 

[hash tag]

Cynical Publicity stunt.

 

[Lorca]

I was just out cycling round the local lanes yesterday afternoon, went past a young lady lying on her back by a peaceful babbling brook, enjoying the February heat, mountain bike propped up nearby. We exchanged pleasantries, went on my way, didn't think too much of it. Cycled past the same spot again today and there's a pile of rubbish scattered about - crisp packets, pop bottles sweet wrappers etc etc.
Sorry, there's no real point to this crap anecdote, i just wanted to have a pointless whinge! Every time i go bird watching now i have to take a bag which will almost certainly get filled up with plastic within a couple of hours, it's depressing, and always worse when the kids are off school. Bring back the birch, i say!

 

[stavros]

I think reigniting the thread is well worth it. I'm amazed it's been two years since were having these discussions. Not much has changed as far as I can see, either from a government/council policy perspective, nor in terms of me picking up a small amount of what I find.

 

[likesfish]

did bulk waste for the council amazing the number of people who could afford to replace their shitty electric recliner 3 piece suite but can't afford to PAY anyone to take the old one away so dump it at the side of the road cause the council will take it away