Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[Anudder Oik]

Ukraine

For starters.

I'll bear this in mind and be on the look out.

I would appreciate your opinion on how the events in Germany/Paris/elsewhere on NYE relate and differ from sexual harrasment in europe before NYE? Would you comment on
Bernie Gunther's point here?

It's actually quite useful to ask the inverse question.

Why would anyone want to prevent sexual assaults in Cologne from being compared to other cases of sexual assault, especially cases where the racial element is absent?

Why would they want to get angry about or smear anyone who dares to make such a comparison?

Why not just say that the comparison is unconvincing for whatever reason (I didn't think the one in question was terribly helpful myself) rather than mount such furious attacks?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I agree this question is relevant, however, the flaw is that it equates different types of sexual assaults. We have never seen anything on the scale of NYE in europe. Nothig that has caused so much alarm and division. Sexual assaults in europe before NYE did not fuel the far right. That's the difference that is not being addressed. It is not business as usual.

You can usefully compare something without necessarily equating it.

Surely that's evident?

Attacking someone who is obviously comparing on the grounds of a spurious claim that they're 'equating', as has happened multiple times on this thread, is well dodgy.

Surely that's evident too, especially in a context like this one.

 

[frogwoman]

I'll bear this in mind and be on the look out.

I would appreciate your opinion on how the events in Germany/Paris/elsewhere on NYE relate and differ from sexual harrasment in europe before NYE? Would you comment on
Bernie Gunther's point here?

I have made plenty of comments about my views earlier on the thread, you liked some of my posts

 

[Pickman's model]

Why did you choose matrilineal societies instead of matriarchal cultures? Is it because you're thick as shit when it comes to the meaning of language (when asked a direct question)and/or a complete sexist gibbon trying to prove yourself as right on to feminist politics at which you fail abysmally with your concentration on 'quality' (hahaha, pfft) as opposed to quantity porn. Go crawl back under that rock.

But I'm sure you're pleased with women doing the washing up. It would mean a visitor to your hovel. Prick.

you haven't demonstrated these societies matrilineal and not matriarchal.

 

[frogwoman]

Clearly the scale of this is different and clearly refugee networks are being utilised by criminal gangs. Clearly these men who carried out the attack have extremely fucked up attitudes to women for a variety of reasons whether it is to do with them being demobilised soldiers or fighters that have been encouraged to think anything goes, fundamentalist interpretations of islam that have become common place in terms of attitudes to women and have influenced these mens thinking even if they dont believe it wholeheartedly, or because they are part of a criminal network already, that like with people traffickers and smugglers in all countries treats women like shit, or for the ones that are German citizens have grown up with the culture of pre existing misogyny in german society and found some fellow travellers. Or a combination of several of the above factors and a lot more. I don't think it is entirely due to one factor and I have missed a load out but those are the ones off the top of my head. Refugee women are currently the worst victims of that sort of violence currently.

however the answer to that isnt to do as CR and their ilk would suggest and shut the borders. That will simply leave refugees even more to these gangs of criminal smuggling networks and will mean that some of them end up in the black economy to survive even more than whats happened already.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Refugee women are currently the worst victims of that sort of violence currently.

I'm reminded of the influx of Sudanese refugees we had a few years ago. I met maybe 30 young male refugees and only one woman. I asked why that was and was told that the girls just didn't make it out. Many of them had been enslaved.

 

[DotCommunist]

Yes theres a,nasty homophobic taint in that book i only noticed when older.

iirc the NSDAP were not above using homosexual blackmail on wealthy targets back in the early gangster politics days when they were shaking down by means gross and subtle

Commenting on one of this thread's most prominent posters isn't derailment.

You need to stop this voice of the working class stuff as well.

if it was violence at the footie said someone from 15 years ago

 

[DotCommunist]

A groundsheet is a woman soldier ie something you put on the ground. CR posted that.

nice. and from someone whose ideas of 'public morality' veer on the paisleyite side. To the victors go the spoils eh CR?

 

[sihhi]

A jumping off point it is not. Evasion it is. Insulting evasion. As if women in Birmingham feel they need to stay off the streets like women in Cologne and other german cities. The supposed attacks on the left here (really dissent) are based on this evasion, nothing to see here attitude that Phillips has so eloquently confirmed.

I'm not trying to smear you, it's just the tone of the previous dozen or so posts are disgraceful. A really demented derailment that you appear to have participated in.

This sounds not true. I have relatives in Germany - two generations with women plus kiddies - and I don't think "they feel they need to stay off the streets"

N Y E gives unique opportunities for this type of groping behaviour to be exploited by harassing males:- large crowds, moving smaller crowds within crowds, people getting close and dancing, music and loud fireworks, no stewarding, unplanned behaviour.

 

[DotCommunist]

however the answer to that isnt to do as CR and their ilk would suggest and shut the borders. That will simply leave refugees even more to these gangs of criminal smuggling networks and will mean that some of them end up in the black economy to survive even more than whats happened already.

finding it a struggle to get through to the 'OPEN BORDERS!?!' crew that it doesn't matter if the borders are 'open' or 'closed'. Ministers and politicians are not in control of mass population movement. Sure theres things to be done within their power but this idea that open/closed borders is some magic ticket. What planet are these people on. Its people here, now. Your choice is to uncitizen them to the internment camps or accept them into society. What else are you going to do? send em back to syria? to eritrea? Let them starve in the hedgerows? Is that what we are now?

 

[BigTom]

A jumping off point it is not. Evasion it is. Insulting evasion. As if women in Birmingham feel they need to stay off the streets like women in Cologne and other german cities. The supposed attacks on the left here (really dissent) are based on this evasion, nothing to see here attitude that Phillips has so eloquently confirmed.

I'm not trying to smear you, it's just the tone of the previous dozen or so posts are disgraceful. A really demented derailment that you appear to have participated in.

I know plenty of women who wouldn't go out on broad street because of the harassment they get there. Not the same as cologne but that's not what jess Phillips was saying.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Ministers and politicians are not in control of mass population movement

Who is?

 

[treelover]

TINA.

 

[treelover]

finding it a struggle to get through to the 'OPEN BORDERS!?!' crew that it doesn't matter if the borders are 'open' or 'closed'. Ministers and politicians are not in control of mass population movement. Sure theres things to be done within their power but this idea that open/closed borders is some magic ticket. What planet are these people on. Its people here, now. Your choice is to uncitizen them to the internment camps or accept them into society. What else are you going to do? send em back to syria? to eritrea? Let them starve in the hedgerows? Is that what we are now?

TINA

 

[bluescreen]

Apart from the human rights arguments, closed borders is a bit like Prohibition in giving power and control to criminal gangs. Managing the sheer numbers coming through, whether the borders are open or closed, is another matter. They will come through anyway. They will all need somewhere to live and a source of income. We have to find a way of living together.

 

[DotCommunist]

TINA

thats not the quip you think it is because their are alternatives. All of them abhorrent. If you want to throw around smug acronyms why not come up with an alternative plan that doesn't include shifting the desperate back to the hells they just did a runner from and doesn't involve internment

 

[DotCommunist]

TINA

Here's an acronym popularised by Richard Adams 'SEP' Someone Elses Problem

right. Fine socialist you are

 

[Pickman's model]

TINA

i always knew there was a thatcherite in you

 

[DotCommunist]

Who is?

no bugger. I don't think the traffickers and people smugglers count more than the money tbf

 

[sihhi]

What else are you going to do? send em back to syria? to eritrea? Let them starve in the hedgerows? Is that what we are now?

We are at a perfect storm where capitalism in the western core is decline at the same time as capitalism elsewhere is on a bumpy (affected by the decline in the west) rise meaning explosive struggles within those ruling classes sometimes leading to civil wars which will go on fed by arms sales/intelligence assistance from two roughly rival blocs.
The decline in the west means that refugees are much less wanted there - there's no need for them unless they are seriously cheaper than the native unemployed rate, i think it's a bit of a punt for employers to go all out for mass entry, because it can cause so much resentment and destabilisation. yes hedgerows just about covers it. if there was interest from french or british employers the jungle issue could have been sorted out within weeks but there isn't so it's carried on over years.

 

[DotCommunist]

We are at a perfect storm where capitalism in the western core is decline at the same time as capitalism elsewhere is on a bumpy (affected by the decline in the west) rise meaning explosive struggles within those ruling classes sometimes leading to civil wars which will go on fed by arms sales/intelligence assistance from two roughly rival blocs.
The decline in the west means that refugees are much less wanted there - there's no need for them unless they are seriously cheaper than the native unemployed rate, i think it's a bit of a punt for employers to go all out for mass entry, because it can cause so much resentment and destabilisation. yes hedgerows just about covers it. if there was interest from french or british employers the jungle issue could have been sorted out within weeks but there isn't so it's carried on over years.

grey area gangmasterism for the undeclared. Winkle picking when no one told them what time the tide comes in on this stretch of coast. I thought better of treelover. Shits hard enough here for the 'native' w/c but are we supposed to just let the grossest exploitations, degredations and unsee it all? I don't see why. What socialist can look at that without disgust and hatred of the exploiters? Thats why treelovers TINA has annoyed me. It is there, right now. No alternative. They are here and the only place they have to go back to is rubble or worse. So what does a socialist say to this? Fuck them? that certainly seems all the empathy treelover can manage. I appreciate your points on the nature of the capitalisms driving this also, had not thought about it in those terms.

 

[pocketscience]

We are at a perfect storm where capitalism in the western core is decline at the same time as capitalism elsewhere is on a bumpy (affected by the decline in the west) rise

What makes you think capitalism is in decline anywhere? I'd say it's rampantly expanding everywhere atm. As far as refugees go, its equally as much a cause, as an effect, to their plight.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

This is interesting stuff but not really much to do with Cologne.

Maybe another thread?

 

[sihhi]

What else are you going to do? send em back to syria? to eritrea? Let them starve in the hedgerows? Is that what we are now?

To take each of these options in turn.
Yes back to Eritrea.

Men and women from Sierra Leone and Eritrea were said to have been among those who were moved to Stansted from Home Office immigration removal centres including Harmondsworth, Yarl’s Wood and Colnbrook. The Home Office said that it did not comment on operational matters. But deportation orders, which inform those involved that they were to be flown out to Nigeria, have been seen by the Guardian. The same notices contained a flight number that has been previously associated with deportations.

Home Office set to deport more asylum seekers, activists say

“The Home Office report does not conform to the professional standards which country information reports are expected to meet. Instead it is based on a highly selective use of information and it deliberately distorts information to support its own conclusions, namely that it is now safe for the UK to return Eritrean asylum seekers to their home country.”

UK 'using misleading information' to return Eritrean asylum seekers

Yes back to Syria.

https://www.amnesty.org/download/Documents/EUR4430222015ENGLISH.pdf

EUROPE'S GATEKEEPER: UNLAWFUL DETENTION AND DEPORTATION OF REFUGEES FROM TURKEY

authorities used varying degrees of coercion to pressure refugees and asylum-seekers to agree to “voluntary” returns. The account of a 23-year old Syrian woman from Hama was typical of what refugees told Amnesty International; while being detained in Düziçi, the authorities told her: “Go back to Syria or stay in jail; these are your options.” A Syrian woman from Idlib who was detained in Düziçi with her four children (aged 12, 10, 8 and 3), said she was ordered to sign a voluntary return agreement in Turkish, which she could not understand. According to her the authorities said: “We will not translate it. If you refuse to sign, you must stay here.” A 26-year old Syrian woman explained that some detainees in Erzurum Removal Centre were physically forced to put their fingerprints to a document. A 23-year old Syrian man said that he was part of a group in Erzurum in which a threeyear old child was forced to provide his fingerprints as evidence of his consent to return to Syria

In November 2015 the Turkish prime minister Ahmet Davutoglu proposed a Turkish military overseen protective refugee enclave within Syria for refugees in Turkey still in camps to moved into, conveniently between two Kurdish cantons, and to be funded from the 3 billion Euro the EU has begun giving Turkey for stopping any and all refugees leaving Turkey towards Europe.

Yes starving.

From a study of asylum seekers in Yorkshire

Most concerning is that 66 per cent (n=37) of participants experienced hunger, without the ability to satisfy it, on a weekly basis and 23 per cent (n=13) reported experiencing hunger without the ability to satisfy it every day of a given week. In the absence of knowing the duration of this hunger throughout the day, we would view the experience of hunger one to two times a week and three to four times a week equally.

http://www.redcross.org.uk//~/media...out us/South Yorkshire destitution report.pdf

 

[sihhi]

What makes you think capitalism is in decline anywhere? I'd say it's rampantly expanding everywhere atm. As far as refugees go, its equally as much a cause, as an effect, to their plight.

It is a diversion, but I meant in terms of growth rates in the west growth is very stagnant. In other places growth is still higher at the same time as unemployment also increasing.

 

[Casually Red]

From what I've read into his posts and all the others on this thread I think you should cut him some slack and deal directly with his arguments and not his history or his person, as the greek philosophers would have had it.

Sometimes, when people clash in argument they themselves are secondary in importance to who is standing around listening. He argues his points straight and his opponents resort to evasion and insult.

Evasion, insult smear and complete and utter bullshit .

Strasserite FFs. Strasserite !!! Some obscure strand of fucking nazism from the back arse of beyond. Who ,except for people who virtually live on the bloody Internet and constantly obsess over that stuff , even know what the fuck that even is ? ? Or even care ??

Strasserite !! Remember what that actually means in reality . It means I'm secretly working for a return of the third reich and racial extermination programmes . Me here, up on this bloody hill . A secret devotee of mr strasser . "Outed" by these fucking weirdos .

Remember your talking to a bunch of people with a track record of ganging up and pecking like hens until they've driven posters who put it up to them off the site by constant repetition of the same sneers and abuse . I was warned by other posters a few years back they were conspiring to have me banned . This is exactly ...precisely...what this is all about . It's what they do .

 

[Casually Red]

You can usefully compare something without necessarily equating it.

Surely that's evident?

Attacking someone who is obviously comparing on the grounds of a spurious claim that they're 'equating', as has happened multiple times on this thread, is well dodgy.

Surely that's evident too, especially in a context like this one.

Yes well merely comparing it to cologne hamburg etc would involve pointing out this is an organised phenomena on the scale we simply haven't seen before. So youd point out it isn't really comparable to your average night out .

For example if there was a 500 car pile up on a motorway , and 150 car pile up on a dual carriageway on the same night you'd sound a complete prick if you then compared it to nudging someone's bumper in a car park .

 

[DotCommunist]

I was heartened a while back to hear of indias food scheme, apparently one of the largest in the world of state led food programs. Its a bowl of dahl and by god thats no way near enough for a growing child or an adult. But it at least gives enough strength to go beg borrow or steal more for that day. Thats no way to live, nobody should have to be reduced to a state issued bowl of food per day when others live in such riches. I often wonder if people so quick to condemn and demonise the migrant knows how it feels to go hungry? Not for a day, for months on end with just enough to stop you ending up another dead povvo that no one in power gives two fucks about


All these ninnies shrieking about open borders need to recognize that borders are porouse. I myself am not willing to let these people be labelled as rats and swarms and and de facto rapists who we 'should never have let in'. Like we had a choice anyway!

 

[seventh bullet]

Evasion, insult smear and complete and utter bullshit .

Strasserite FFs. Strasserite !!! Some obscure strand of fucking nazism from the back arse of beyond. Who ,except for people who virtually live on the bloody Internet and constantly obsess over that stuff , even know what the fuck that even is ? ? Or even care ??

Strasserite !! Remember what that actually means in reality . It means I'm secretly working for a return of the third reich and racial extermination programmes . Me here, up on this bloody hill . A secret devotee of mr strasser . "Outed" by these fucking weirdos .

Remember your talking to a bunch of people with a track record of ganging up and pecking like hens until they've driven posters who put it up to them off the site by constant repetition of the same sneers and abuse . I was warned by other posters a few years back they were conspiring to have me banned . This is exactly ...precisely...what this is all about . It's what they do .

What do you do with a groundsheet?

 

[Casually Red]

A groundsheet is a woman soldier ie something you put on the ground. CR posted that.

Aye a British woman soldier . It's what we all called them growing up. And worse, much worse in fact .Ever been searched by one ? Ever had your house or the family car searched by one ? ever had subjects such as the stunning successes of the SAS around east Tyrone rubbed in your face by one while they're showing off how macho they are to their mates ?

If not I'd suggest you keep it zipped when it comes to the subject of people from a certain part of the world referring to them in less than complimentary terms .

Herr Strasser and the steel helmetted legions have fuck all to do with it .