Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[butchersapron]

What is your solution?

How is the "left" going to counter attempts by our rulers to now ram thru a massive breach in the minimum wage, so as to "integrate" these million and a half new arrivals?

As i said, why would i bother with you after those previous posts? Why would anyone from my perspective bother with this sucking pit - and have another lol at your clumsy attempt to bring class issues up.

 

[bimble]

As i said, why would i bother with you after those previous posts? Why would anyone from my perspective bother with this sucking pit - and have another lol at your clumsy attempt to bring class issues up.

I wish people like you would bother to express an opinion on this , really do.

 

[treelover]

Maybe it is a cesspit. But.. how did it get that way? Is it because 'posters from the left' have nothing to say here and would rather write about which biscuits they dislike the most etc?
I'm not CR's pal at all but am still really angry about an issue, which is an actual issue, not a figment of right wing media propaganda etc, not a normal part of drunken public celebrations etc no, it's a real thing, mass sexual assault by many men at once in public spaces, and I'm angry about it and about the fact that nobody apparently has a clue what to do about it.

Good to see you standing your corner Bimble, whether posters agree with you or not.

 

[butchersapron]

I wish people like you would bother to express an opinion on this , really do.

Established already - hate women, probably middle class lefty. Scared of muslims. Scared full stop. Coward.

 

[Anudder Oik]

As i said, why would i bother with you after those previous posts? Why would anyone from my perspective bother with this sucking pit - and have another lol at your clumsy attempt to bring class issues up.

That's just insulting. So, you have nothing to say. You are paralized. By the shadow of the far right?

Well, you better trot off to whatever other raging debates there are on the matter then, where you will obviously feel more comfortable amongst people who are all towing the PC party line rather than bringing up uncomfortable truths. I'd prefer you to stay and state a strong case for whatever position you hold.

 

[bimble]

 

[treelover]

Established already - hate women, probably middle class lefty. Scared of muslims. Scared full stop. Coward.

I really don't think Bimble thinks that of you, anyway you publised articles about the growth of identity politics and the euro-nationalists, etc, and yes I do think people are staying away from this thread, but not all for the reasons you argue.

 

[butchersapron]

That's just insulting. So, you have nothing to say. You are paralized. By the shadow of the far right?

Do you know any Working class people?

Yes, by the shadow of the far right - who i've not mentioned. Rather just racist blatherings on this thread - all bolstered by a very dangerous this is what w/c people think, i'm w/c, i must think that and anyone who doesn't isn't w/c logic. It's people like you who think you're coming from the left who are more dangerous on this thread frankly.

 

[butchersapron]

I really don't think Bimble thinks that of you, anyway you publised articles about the growth of identity politics and the euro-nationalists, etc, and yes I do think people are staying away from this thread, but not all for the reasons you argue.

Why, given you know where i'm coming from and my long -term commitment to exposing/analysing identity politics and the euro-nationalists etc, do you think i think this thread is worthless?

 

[treelover]

It should not be left to the bloody DM to transmit this information though, should it.

Yes, if this was the far right who had done these terrible things, it would be all over the progressive web, demos demanded, etc.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Why, given you know where i'm coming from and my long -term commitment to exposing/analysing identity politics and the euro-nationalists etc, do you think i think this thread is worthless?

You're getting the wrong end of the stick over the dynamics of this thread. NYE was a historic date in the political calendar, There is a before and an after Cologne. There is no getting away from that.

Perspectives are being swayed by the events and the far right are tapping into that. They are not inventing/exaggerating it with a propaganda campaign.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I have to echo what butchers said over the page, this thread has to be the most depressing I've ever participated in on urban.

 

[butchersapron]

You're getting the wrong end of the stick over the dynamics of this thread. NYE was a historic date in the political calendar, There is a before and an after Cologne. There is no getting away from that.

Perspectives are being swayed by the events and the far right are tapping into that. They are not exaggerating it with a propaganda campaign.

No - i've watched it develop from a thread discussing a real issue with one that is something that can be talked about in terms of potential class responses into one where discredited racist propaganda is posted, where people just post up look at the immigrants vids and into one where 'no german women are safe' is posted (by the thread tone setter btw) with no challenge. And all this under the cover of don''t you care about women? Are you middle class?

 

[treelover]

There haven't been enough various views from more posters to make it anything really.

 

[bimble]

No - i've watched it develop from a thread discussing a real issue with one that is something that can be talked about in terms of potential class responses into one where discredited racist propaganda is posted, where people just post up look at the immigrants vids and into one where 'no german women are safe' is posted (by the thread tone setter btw) with no challenge. And all this under the cover of don''t you care about women? Are you middle class?

Where are the people who want to discuss the real issue ? They're elsewhere I think, writing about biscuits.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Where are the people who want to discuss the real issue ? They're elsewhere I think, writing about biscuits.

Lol,

Yeah, wafer thin ones.

 

[treelover]

Like to see the many lurkers express their views on all this.

 

[DotCommunist]

I have to echo what butchers said over the page, this thread has to be the most depressing I've ever participated in on urban.

one of the interesting if annoying things is to see the CR foghorn at work. Follows a well worn path as well, similar to syria threads and ukraine thread. Starts from the position then argues it relentlessly and then is eventually reduced to copying out right loon propaganda vertabim nearly. As his own work. His fellow travellers will also repeat the failure of the left line over and over. In the hope that sheer volume of noise will drown out signal. He's not done bad here, picked up a few useful idiots and pretty much shifted the discussion along certain lines.

 

[treelover]

Mmm, useful idiots, I think the original use of the term could reflect something different.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

'The real issues' ... right.

By what criteria precisely are these real issues to be distinguished from unreal issues?

Let's take some specific examples shall we?

Police attitudes to sexual assaults on women vs property crime?
Causes and dynamics of refugee flows as documented by NGOs?
Capital's tolerance for collapsed states run by gangsters as long as they produce loot?
Relationship between people trafficking and refugee involvement in street crime?

What makes those issues 'unreal' and what makes getting all excited by sensationalist garbage from racist loon sources and calling anybody who won't join you in doing so 'leftist apologists for rape' and editing their posts to say something you'd prefer to argue with because it fits your agenda better than what they're actually saying ...

... 'real'?

And who gets to decide?

 

[sihhi]

this is getting repeated untill its true, as we've seen on this thread alone.

I am stunned at the constant assertions on those lines without evidence.
Left-wing and liberal press have covered this as vigorously as the centre-right press. There was a delay in reporting because there was police bureaucracy and a police-local government desire to keep a lid on things in bureaucratic fashion.

This has given way to rampant anti-left smears and innuendo if not ugly anti-communist redbaiting along the lines of:- the left have plotted as part of treasonous clique within government to enable entry for rapist males to meltdown the fabric of a basically superior European society.

All things in moderation . Including moderation .

How the flip did we end up with an uber liberal woman mayor in cologne telling women to keep an arms length from men at festivals, to stay in groups and not to socialise or flirt with strangers. And another uber liberal minister announcing that merely saying precisely what we are saying now on the Internet is just as bad the sex attacks ?

The claim is that Henriette Reker is an uber liberal - in fact she's a centre-right independent supported by the CDU into office.
No minister - liberal or otherwise - has announced that discussion on the internest is as criminal as the events.

...
There has also been a belief that to support right of refuge is to kick bread from the mouths of a native working-class, that only works if we subscribe to the idea that the working-class should themselves be on license at the mercy of the ruling class, that if rights are accorded to one category of people they will have to pegged back from others.
Those aren't left ideas in my book. Occasionally this is passed of as realism, if you can't change the bedrock of what is permissible in society why be a citizen/do politics?

All of this stuff is a general drift, as the recession deepens, to try and produce nationalist solutions to what are intractable problems of a multi-continent working class.

If the left have no ideas, the other centrist solutions offered here - variations on 'let the state deport anyone deemed unwanted or a danger' - are no better.

 

[treelover]

I think you are largely summarising the views one of poster, who i think would accept that.

I would like to see a whole range of views on this issue.

 

[Pickman's model]

There haven't been enough various views from more posters to make it anything really.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think you are largely summarising the views one of poster, who i think would accept that.

I would like to see a whole range of views on this issue.

 

[Anudder Oik]

There has also been a belief that to support right of refuge is to kick bread from the mouths of a native working-class, that only works if we subscribe to the idea that the working-class should themselves be on license at the mercy of the ruling class, that if rights are accorded to one category of people they will have to pegged back from others.

Are you aware of the consequences of mass immigration?

IMF recommends paying refugees below the minimum wage

Will this only commit them to misery?

 

[Anudder Oik]

At this stage of the mass immigration experiment, the ruling class (capital) doesn't need racism. Individual players like Merkel don't need it either for personal career motives, but should this mass of newly arrrived people ever try to integrate to the extent where they can stand shoulder to shoulder with local workers to improve theirs and everyone's lot, then the ruling class will open up racist divisions like water from a tap.

IMO, it has been very very irresponsible and short sited for "progressive" people to be so mass immigation obsessed (blindly fanatical even), as if it were the best thing since internet and there can be no negative consequences whatsover.

 

[sihhi]

Are you aware of the consequences of mass immigration?

IMF recommends paying refugees below the minimum wage

I posted earlier how German employers including the BDA have been making calls since Oct/Nov last year for relaxing minimum wage requirements as part of integrating the refugees. Allowing the right of refuge only for, say, Russian millionaires or will produce exactly the same consequences as mass immigration.

 

[bimble]

Butchers was right, what a cesspit this is.

Left-wing and liberal press have covered this as vigorously as the centre-right press.

 

[DotCommunist]

At this stage of the mass immigration experiment, the ruling class (capital) doesn't need racism. Individual players like Merkel don't need it either for personal career motives, but should this mass of newly arrrived people ever try to integrate to the extent where they can stand shoulder to shoulder with local workers to improve theirs and everyone's lot, then the ruling class will open up racist divisions like water from a tap.

IMO, it has been very very irresponsible and short sited for "progressive" people to be so mass immigation obsessed (blindly fanatical even), as if it were the best thing since internet and there can be no negative consequences whatsover.

i'll remind you again that your grasp of population movements over historical periods is so poor you thought there were more jewish people in israel than the diaspora (plus wanted mass apologies from all of that 'race' lol) and also mistook the stone age for the iron age. I think you need to look at your instincts here. They are dodgy

 

[butchersapron]

Butchers was right, what a cesspit this is.

Left-wing and liberal press have covered this as vigorously as the centre-right press

What is the point that you're seeking to make here?