Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[Casually Red]

That makes sense but .. it explains street robbery as a means of survival and repaying debts but doesn't help with mass sexual assault, ripping clothes off women who are trying to get out of a train station, groping them so as to leave bruises on their skin etc..
Sorry but no, economics does not explain this

I went around 4 to 5 years with neither job nor benefits . No savings, nothing . Long story . In that entire time I managed to neither rob nor rape anyone , not even a little bit, not once . So it's a bullshit excuse . Millionaires and billionaires rape and abuse people .

 

[two sheds]

I'd assumed that everyone posting here started out from the idea that the people who did this need finding and locking up, and anything like it needs to be prevented happening again.

Trying to prevent it happening again means you need to analyze the causes, which often looks like the actions are being condoned but they're not.

Is anyone here saying that the attacks should be hushed up?

 

[coley]

What seems sad to me is that.. of everyone here Casually Red, whoever he may be, is the one person shouting loudest here for the past month about the rights of women to walk about in the streets all unmolested with their clothes in tact etc.
I'm still a bit newish so don't fully understand why CR is a bad person, even though I have seen him post some very weird stuff (about how 'sex people' should be sent to the gulag and such).
But tbh I don't really care about what sort of a person CR may be, I'm more curious about what this thread would have looked like if there were more women writing here.

He isn't a bad person, just confused, he defends Assad, Putin et al at every opportunity, but describes the peacekeeping mission in NI, (imperfect as it was) as a brutal oppression by the British state.
As for why more female posters haven't come in on this discussion, who knows? I certainly don't, it's definitely a genuine cause for concern.

 

[campanula]

Why are we being really mealy-mouthed about the misogyny which is deeply ingrained in many aspects of Islamic culture/religion/way of life? Because we also have a refugee crisis, are we no longer allowed to be critical of honour killings, genital mutilation, forced marriage, stoning, vast gulfs of understanding of the meaning and consequences of rape? This is not just the treatment of 'our women' - it is the treatment of all women. Ho yes, it goes both ways - the depravity of the west, the licentiousness, the pornography blah blah - a fucking great clash of cultures but where women come out worse and what...we cannot mention this because the refugees are hailing from those same cultures.
I am glad you have more faith in education Bimble because from where I am sitting, I can see our education system being taken apart by special interest groups including faith schools.
But because these are minority cultures, I have felt that the balance of power will always tip towards a liberal western secularism and laws regarding molestation and rape, however flimsy, are at least still on the statute books and anyway, Sharia law is not in force here etc.etc...but fuck me, I am still angry that hundreds of us were mauled as what - some sort of blowback. The sins of the West. Capitalism? What? Is this the tenor now of every gathering in public? And is there going to be endless cover-ups because we don't count? Like arab women don't count.I mean, there was only a handful of actual rapes...the rest was just a bit of groping and pick-pocketingL

 

[Casually Red]

Really wish some of those women had been able to do that on NYE, though the scum might have been even more violent then.

There were simply far too many of them . It could well have escalated the assaults . Rescuers at tahrir square had flame throwers and it still barely deterred scum like that . Only a massive application of physical force could have stopped what happened in cologne and Bielefeld .

 

[Casually Red]

but describes the peacekeeping mission in NI, (imperfect as it was) as a brutal oppression by the British state.

Your taking the piss now , no harm to you .

 

[sihhi]

You misunderstand what I'm saying . It was you who stated the articles will be breached if there's deportations for gamgsterism , criminality , sexual assault etc . So therefore it shouldnt happen . I've pointed Out to you in return what strict adherence to those articles actually entails if you insist on going down that route . You seem to want it both ways .

Yes the 1951 conventions are being interpreted in a right-wing fashion, I can't help you CR if you choose to interpret them in that way. As I see it they are explicit that if there is a future risk of ill-treatment in a country then there is a right to asylum. (There doesn't have to have been any ill-treatment before for it to be valid.)
It's clear: "No contracting state shall expel or return a refugee in any manner whatsoever to the frontiers of territories where their life or freedom would be threatened on account of their race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social or political opinion"

Being a certain category of Syrian, one who arrived later than 2013 for instance or a minority, in Turkey is a place precisely where freedom would be threatened on account of their race.
There's brutal two-tier society for citizen/old refugee vs new refugee and near total lockdown, zero freedom, for certain groupings from Syria it is absolutely dangerous to stay in Turkey, in part because jihadists are so active/arm-in-arm with Turkish intelligence operatives.
Not only that but Turkey is deporting Syrians back to Syria:

Turkey 'acting illegally' over Syria refugees deportations - BBC News

'Forced us to sign papers'
Two other members of the group arrested in Edirne also made contact.
One, from the Islamic State (IS) stronghold of Raqqa, messaged with the words: "We are out of prison today. They sent us to Syria.
"Bye my friend. Don't write to me until I do please," he wrote, clearly fearful of retribution by IS.
We tracked down the other to southern Turkey, where he said he had returned after being deported to Syria in late November. He showed us the Turkey exit stamp on his passport.
"They drove us to the border and forced us to sign a piece of paper on which was written 'I want to go back to Syria'," he told me.
"They were shouting at us and said they would send us back to Erzurum (detention centre) if we didn't sign.
"I didn't want to go back to Syria. Some of my friends have now been put in prison there, and many people were afraid of returning to a war zone."

Aydin Police Authority Foreigners Branch.

It boils down to this - the Turkish government will deport any Syrian it doesn't like (for ideological reasons or trying to gain rights for Syrians in Turkey) back to Syria. That's not a safe place to deport someone.
Things may change with new arrangements for Syrian refugees but at new years day 2016 only about 7,000 had any right to work.

 

[coley]

Your taking the piss now , no harm to you .

In a gentle way, too tired and busy at the mo to be engaging seriously in any threads, but looking at your contributions so far, I am inclined to lean your way, for once

 

[bimble]

I'd assumed that everyone posting here started out from the idea that the people who did this need finding and locking up, and anything like it needs to be prevented happening again.

Me too. Fact is that almost a month on, and 520 reported sexual assaults, one single man has been charged.

Trying to prevent it happening again means you need to analyze the causes, which often looks like the actions are being condoned but they're not.

Yep.

Is anyone here saying that the attacks should be hushed up?

Sadly the answer to that is yes. Maybe it will stop now that the numbers of reported assaults in one night in one place have reached the 500s but yes there have been many attempts at hushing this whole thing up, or trying to make it go away, both here on our little thread and elsewhere, like in the Cologne police.
The latest version was just yesterday with the whole 'this stuff is normal at drunken public celebrations' attempt.

 

[Casually Red]

Why are we being really mealy-mouthed about the misogyny which is deeply ingrained in many aspects of Islamic culture/religion/way of life? Because we also have a refugee crisis, are we no longer allowed to be critical of honour killings, genital mutilation, forced marriage, stoning, vast gulfs of understanding of the meaning and consequences of rape? This is not just the treatment of 'our women' - it is the treatment of all women. Ho yes, it goes both ways - the depravity of the west, the licentiousness, the pornography blah blah - a fucking great clash of cultures but where women come out worse and what...we cannot mention this because the refugees are hailing from those same cultures.

One of those imams came out after these attacks and blamed the women for wearing perfume and stuff . Initially I just thought " stupid medieval twat " . But after I thought about it a bit I took it as a bit more sinister . Like it was more of a backhanded threat or warning . Like it was " you'd better change your ways or this is what'll happen you women " . Feminists should have been straight down to that twats door protesting and calling him out just like they would anyone else who went on tv and said that . There needs to be a more robust attitude to this sort of stuff without fear of causing offence , or the issue of freedoms is just a hypocritical joke .
Those Niqabs are really getting on my tits now as well . Years ago I'd have defended peoples right to wear them but these days they get my goat . It's like a massive big piss off to not just assimilation but to other people in general . Self ghettoisation . Not healthy .

 

[Casually Red]

Me too. Fact is that almost a month on, and 520 reported sexual assaults, one single man has been charged with assault.



Yep.



Sadly the answer to that is yes, maybe it will stop now that the numbers of reported assaults in one night in one place have reached the 500s but yes here have been many attempts at hushing this whole thing up, or trying to make it go away, both here on our little thread and elsewhere, like in the Cologne police.
The latest version was just yesterday with the whole 'this stuff is normal at drunken public celebrations' attempt.

Oktoberfest ...how many flipping pages was that disingenous horse flogged through the muddied waters ?

 

[campanula]

And hey - not just Islamic culture - look at some of those apostolic fucks in the US. Family planning regarded as the spawn of Satan and guess where all the opprobrium is landing - on those faithless whores - women. Rapes in Delhi - what the fuck is going on....this has been freaking me out for a few years now and when did confess to my anxieties (just after the horrible Indian rapes)- I was made to feel like a backward racist so no, have been a tad circumspect...but I am angry enough to not really care about my social standing as a good liberal tolerant sort anymore.

 

[bimble]

I am angry enough to not really care about my social standing as a good liberal tolerant sort anymore.

Exactly how I feel. And the Indian gang rape / murder problem is what pushed me down this sorry road too, a couple of years ago.

 

[coley]

Yes the 1951 conventions are being interpreted in a right-wing fashion, I can't help you CR if you choose to interpret them in that way. As I see it they are explicit that if there is a future risk of ill-treatment in a country then there is a right to asylum. (There doesn't have to have been any ill-treatment before for it to be valid.)
It's clear: "No contracting state shall expel or return a refugee in any manner whatsoever to the frontiers of territories where their life or freedom would be threatened on account of their race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social or political opinion"

Being a certain category of Syrian, one who arrived later than 2013 for instance or a minority, in Turkey is a place precisely where freedom would be threatened on account of their race.
There's brutal two-tier society for citizen/old refugee vs new refugee and near total lockdown, zero freedom, for certain groupings from Syria it is absolutely dangerous to stay in Turkey, in part because jihadists are so active/arm-in-arm with Turkish intelligence operatives.
Not only that but Turkey is deporting Syrians back to Syria:

Turkey 'acting illegally' over Syria refugees deportations - BBC News

'Forced us to sign papers'
Two other members of the group arrested in Edirne also made contact.
One, from the Islamic State (IS) stronghold of Raqqa, messaged with the words: "We are out of prison today. They sent us to Syria.
"Bye my friend. Don't write to me until I do please," he wrote, clearly fearful of retribution by IS.
We tracked down the other to southern Turkey, where he said he had returned after being deported to Syria in late November. He showed us the Turkey exit stamp on his passport.
"They drove us to the border and forced us to sign a piece of paper on which was written 'I want to go back to Syria'," he told me.
"They were shouting at us and said they would send us back to Erzurum (detention centre) if we didn't sign.
"I didn't want to go back to Syria. Some of my friends have now been put in prison there, and many people were afraid of returning to a war zone."

Aydin Police Authority Foreigners Branch.

It boils down to this - the Turkish government will deport any Syrian it doesn't like (for ideological reasons or trying to gain rights for Syrians in Turkey) back to Syria. That's not a safe place to deport someone.
Things may change with new arrangements for Syrian refugees but at new years day 2016 only about 7,000 had any right to work.

In short the Syrian crisis has exposed the Erdogan govt for what it is, not the Turkish people ( at present, but they need to wake up)
And NATO and the EU needs to send a message, not to Erdogan( his hatred of the Kurds is so pathological any appeal to reason is a waste of time and effort) but to the wider Turkish establishment that if they continue on their present path they can kiss their membership of one and any chance of membership of the other goodbye.

Though in fairness, who would want to be a member of the EU these days?
Oops, someone who wants to ship millions of disaffected people "westwards" while being paid billions for the privilege.

 

[Casually Red]

And hey - not just Islamic culture - look at some of those apostolic fucks in the US. Family planning regarded as the spawn of Satan and guess where all the opprobrium is landing - on those faithless whores - women. Rapes in Delhi - what the fuck is going on....this has been freaking me out for a few years now and when did confess to my anxieties (just after the horrible Indian rapes)- I was made to feel like a backward racist so no, have been a tad circumspect...but I am angry enough to not really care about my social standing as a good liberal tolerant sort anymore.

All things in moderation . Including moderation .

How the flip did we end up with an uber liberal woman mayor in cologne telling women to keep an arms length from men at festivals, to stay in groups and not to socialise or flirt with strangers . And another uber liberal minister announcing that merely saying precisely what we are saying now on the Internet is just as bad the sex attacks ?

This is absolutely insane . In Germany of all places !!! It's bonkers . What happened was atrocious but this is the response of the liberal types in charge of stuff ?

 

[campanula]

am glad you have been continuing this Bimble and I have also wondered why so few women have had anything to say. I have to say I have been pissed off by a parade of bleating men who will never know what it feels like to walk through a crowd in anxiety, who never look at a women and wonder if they are an abuser. Men who would, no doubt, have some very pithy things indeed to say if their penis was routinely mutilated. Still off to bed, I am not keen on confrontation so am squirting a metaphorical pepper spray around.

 

[xenon]

Me too. Fact is that almost a month on, and 520 reported sexual assaults, one single man has been charged with assault.



Yep.



Sadly the answer to that is yes, maybe it will stop now that the numbers of reported assaults in one night in one place have reached the 500s but yes here have been many attempts at hushing this whole thing up, or trying to make it go away, both here on our little thread and elsewhere, like in the Cologne police.
The latest version was just yesterday with the whole 'this stuff is normal at drunken public celebrations' attempt.

I am reading this thread but yes. That is wh at got up my nose the other night and sparked an intemperate post. That is, the siting of the assaults at Oktoberfest. And the like. As if we are fine with that sort of thing. Denying the significance of these recent events the particular characteristic of them. The fact right wing racist will use obvious cultural problems, cultural misogyny to justify their fascist beliefs shouldn't make us detract from looking at those issues. And need it be stated again of course this isn't all or even the majority of the refugees. There were reports of Syrians helping people escape the assaults. I appreciate the attempts of people trying to be analytical. But to me there seemed an eyre of whataboutery

Personaly the reason I don't comment so much perhaps on the everyday examples of misogyny that get cited here, Isn't because I don't care or I am in denial. It is that I have little to offer other than throw the cunts into the sea, The rape threatening gamergat types etc. Wich Isn't really all that helpful. But from reading here and elsewhere I am definitely more aware of the low-level stuff. And without being too po faced about it, I will try and challenge or steer mates away from the sorter all women do X think X type stuff. If it comes up in conversation, I mean i'm not some kind of Bernard Righton type character IYSWIM.

 

[Casually Red]

I'd assumed that everyone posting here started out from the idea that the people who did this need finding and locking up, and anything like it needs to be prevented happening again.

Trying to prevent it happening again means you need to analyze the causes, which often looks like the actions are being condoned but they're not.

Is anyone here saying that the attacks should be hushed up?

The attacks were hushed up . Different attacks in different countries . Hushed up for the very same political reasons . People here were saying they weren't . And then comparing them to stuff that happens all the time .

One, perfectly obvious, analysis of the causes was letting in , virtually overnight, hundreds of thousands of young men from some of the most problematic, socially backward, violent and misogynist shitholes on gods earth . And expecting them to behave like good little Europeans . Despite that plainly not working out as the liberals planned .

But pointing out basic cause and effect proved somewhat controversial . So it must be something else entirely according to some.

 

[treelover]

Never seen such few posters on such a significant issue, including some very prolific ones, though many many reading the thread, i wonder if non contributors would like to say what they haven't posted.

bte, its not a call out either, but am baffled to why this should be

 

[sihhi]

That makes sense but .. it explains street robbery as a means of survival and repaying debts but doesn't help with mass sexual assault, ripping clothes off women who are trying to get out of a train station, groping them so as to leave bruises on their skin etc..
Sorry but no, economics does not explain this.

My understanding is not every pickpocketer was a sexualt assaulter and not every sexual assaulter was a pickpocketer.

As the video the article suggests from a victim:


It's grotesque behaviour absolutely intolerable and it derives in part from an assumption from a minority that it's ok to grab or grope a liberated, non-muslim woman to get at them to rob their purse. We will have to see if a section of those part of the criminal gangs also just went along with others and did not actively seek out any sexual impulse against women but just wanted their money, they still need to be disciplined as severely as possible within Germany. We will have to wait for fuller reports as to whether the portrayal of essentially deranged rapists/molesters seeking to molest European women wherever they get the opportunity is accurate or not.

My general feeling is it's very hard to escape the ties of a gang when you're in - it's thick it's a strong bond often all or nothing.

 

[Casually Red]

Yes the 1951 conventions are being interpreted in a right-wing fashion, I can't help you CR if you choose to interpret them in that way. As I see it they are explicit that if there is a future risk of ill-treatment in a country then there is a right to asylum. (There doesn't have to have been any ill-treatment before for it to be valid.)
It's clear: "No contracting state shall expel or return a refugee in any manner whatsoever to the frontiers of territories where their life or freedom would be threatened on account of their race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social or political opinion"

Being a certain category of Syrian, one who arrived later than 2013 for instance or a minority, in Turkey is a place precisely where freedom would be threatened on account of their race.
There's brutal two-tier society for citizen/old refugee vs new refugee and near total lockdown, zero freedom, for certain groupings from Syria it is absolutely dangerous to stay in Turkey, in part because jihadists are so active/arm-in-arm with Turkish intelligence operatives.
Not only that but Turkey is deporting Syrians back to Syria:

Turkey 'acting illegally' over Syria refugees deportations - BBC News

'Forced us to sign papers'
Two other members of the group arrested in Edirne also made contact.
One, from the Islamic State (IS) stronghold of Raqqa, messaged with the words: "We are out of prison today. They sent us to Syria.
"Bye my friend. Don't write to me until I do please," he wrote, clearly fearful of retribution by IS.
We tracked down the other to southern Turkey, where he said he had returned after being deported to Syria in late November. He showed us the Turkey exit stamp on his passport.
"They drove us to the border and forced us to sign a piece of paper on which was written 'I want to go back to Syria'," he told me.
"They were shouting at us and said they would send us back to Erzurum (detention centre) if we didn't sign.
"I didn't want to go back to Syria. Some of my friends have now been put in prison there, and many people were afraid of returning to a war zone."

Aydin Police Authority Foreigners Branch.

It boils down to this - the Turkish government will deport any Syrian it doesn't like (for ideological reasons or trying to gain rights for Syrians in Turkey) back to Syria. That's not a safe place to deport someone.
Things may change with new arrangements for Syrian refugees but at new years day 2016 only about 7,000 had any right to work.

Germany isn't safe for women any more . Neithers Sweden . Are refugees the only people with rights ? If someone doesn't want to get deported then don't fucking rape anyone, don't fucking rob anyone . It's pretty simple . Not rocket science .

 

[sihhi]

Germany isn't safe for women any more . Neithers Sweden . Are refugees the only people with rights ? If someone doesn't want to get deported then don't fucking rape anyone, don't fucking rob anyone . It's pretty simple . Not rocket science .

Your answer to make Germany and Sweden safe for women is to send back/stop non-Swedes non-Germans.
This then means that the foreigners stay in that foriegn country and so that foreign country is particularly not-safe for women.
Unless the limit of the concern is simply German and Swedish women this is madness from a women's right to safety viewpoint.

 

[Casually Red]

My understanding is not every pickpocketer was a sexualt assaulter and not every sexual assaulter was a pickpocketer.

As the video the article suggests from a victim:
View attachment 82680

It's grotesque behaviour absolutely intolerable and it derives in part from an assumption from a minority that it's ok to grab or grope a liberated, non-muslim woman to get at them to rob their purse. We will have to see if a section of those part of the criminal gangs also just went along with others and did not actively seek out any sexual impulse against women but just wanted their money, they still need to be disciplined as severely as possible within Germany. We will have to wait for fuller reports as to whether the portrayal of essentially deranged rapists/molesters seeking to molest European women wherever they get the opportunity is accurate or not.

My general feeling is it's very hard to escape the ties of a gang when you're in - it's thick it's a strong bond often all or nothing.

And what about the other cities this happened in ?

Your understanding seems to be that if enough people like you obfuscate for long enough the problem will go away .
Regardless of the individual crimes committed all of those thugs , in concert with one another, created a very dangerous environment for women in particular . All of them are scumbags and all of them should be fucked out . And if that means some of them get a good hiding from the mukhabarat or whoever tough shit . Worlds smallest violin .

And they won't be disciplined, they've gotten away with it . All over Germany .

 

[xenon]

I was under the impression those who don't have right to remain or citizenship, who have been convicted and served the sentence for a serious offence, can that be deported to their country of origin. Legally, practically how often that works in practice I don't know. As a point of principle I think it is right though. Even if it means they have to return to a country they have fled.

 

[Casually Red]

Your answer to make Germany and Sweden safe for women is to send back/stop non-Swedes non-Germans.

No it isn't . Lots of people go to Sweden and Germany and manage not to gang fuck anyone on a night out . I was there over Christmas and new year myself, got roaring drunk every single night and never once raped or robbed anyone . The only person I did end up groping was groping me at the same time . So no . Not every non swede or non German should be stopped from going there .

And it plainly isn't the responsibility of European countries to offer their women up as a rape alternative to the rapists usual victims at home . Is it fuck their responsibility to do that . That's insane .

 

[sihhi]

Regardless of the individual crimes committed all of those thugs , in concert with one another, created a very dangerous environment for women in particular . All of them are scumbags and all of them should be fucked out . And if that means some of them get a good hiding from the mukhtar at or whoever tough shit .

This is why the Oktoberfest [you could add Brixton disturbances (where at least two women were raped) or steamings of beaches in Brazil or New Years celebrations in Taksim etc any other situation where violence against women has occured] parallel has been used.

There is a joint enterprise rule for non-citizens, that just doesn't exist for citizens. Would one criminal in Oktoberfest be in any way deemed responsible for the crimes of another criminals there? No, but when it comes to non-citizens their culpability for other crimes of non-citizens is taken for granted.

I don't have a particular answer but the conclusions drawn from this episode suggest that this is really the end of social democratic Europe. It's over.

 

[sihhi]

So no . Not every non swede or non German should be stopped from going there .

And it plainly isn't the responsibility of European countries to offer their women up as a rape alternative to the rapists usual victims at home . Is it fuck their responsibility to do that . That's insane .

So is there is a logic as to who is allowed in and who isn't?

 

[sihhi]

I was under the impression those who don't have right to remain or citizenship, who have been convicted and served the sentence for a serious offence, can that be deported to their country of origin. Legally, practically how often that works in practice I don't know. As a point of principle I think it is right though. Even if it means they have to return to a country they have fled.

Serious offence will mean resistance to the imposed rules of any asylum system.
Denmark has just passed its law allowing police and military to seize any valuables any asylum applicant has, any physical resistance on the lines of 'hey, leave what we've worked for alone!' will be assault and hey presto deportation.

 

[sihhi]

Also you say
and I can't follow you there, sadly.

I'm not attacking you but the author of that piece who suggests the left is responsible for not seeing things going on and covering them up. It was the police and their allied governments who did that.

 

[xenon]

Serious offence will mean resistance to the imposed rules of any asylum system.
Denmark has just passed its law allowing police and military to seize any valuables any asylum applicant has, any physical resistance on the lines of 'hey, leave what we've worked for alone!' will be assault and hey presto deportation.

Of course does not follow if you agree with A, you must also agree with anything dressed up as A, when it's actually Z.