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Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

Pepper spray - mine arrived last week - getting one for my daughter too. A bit miffed at the cost (almost £15) so am looking at a home-made version - since I grow some furious chile peppers. Would feel obliged to test it on myself though (not after maiming or blinding...just stopping...which sort of puts me off the amateur hour version).

To be fair, as an aging crone, I don't feel I am likely to be targeted for groping anytime soon...

The horrible evasiveness regarding the Cologne attacks has hardened a pervasive anxiety - police, authorities hopeless (unless you are in a far more privileged and secure position than I am). Regardless of the sexual nature of this lot of assaults, the increasing polarities in a vastly unequal society is leading me, at least, down something of a weird rabbit hole.
 
Casually Red said:
At last, an actual voice of sanity from among the liberal left . Agree with every bloody word of this one . It's definitely not just me imagining all this .

First Cologne, Now Sweden: How Left-Wing Apologism Is Fueling Right-Wing Populism

" knee jerk political tribalism at its finest "

Spot on missus . Exactly right .

Maybe she's a secret " narzi " as well though .
Click to expand...


This sort of obfuscation is dangerous not just because it makes detection of the actual perpetrators more difficult, but also because it is driving otherwise reasonable people away from the left and all too often into the arms of right-wing populism.
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she has basically stated what some of us on here have been saying.
 
Anudder Oik said:
9 out of 10 victims were blonde.
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Don't know if you were doing a bad joke there or if that's a fact. .
Just watched CR's video on the Oslo rape statistics: It's very odd in that it never specifies 'stranger rape', it actually says 100% of all rapes in Oslo over the last 5 years, which just makes you wonder about Norwegian law to be honest, or about the skills of the subtitle writers.
But it does take care to point out that "almost all the victims were ethnic norwegians". Which I guess means lots of blondes. :facepalm:

edit: The websites you find if you google this are a truly sick-making combo of far right and / or christian loon sites, all peddling the story that Norwegian women have started dying their hair black in a desperate bid to save themselves from the scourge. Disgusting stuff out there.
 
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Anudder Oik said:
I posted before on the issue of Oslo. A woman who councilled the victims, Kristin Spitznogle, was accused of being a racist for speaking about it on TV. It is from her where the 1 in 9 figure comes from.

Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations
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I would like to think that after Rotherham and the myriad of other cities where grooming gangs operated and operate there would not be a similar response here, but I know I'm wrong.
 
bimble said:
Must have missed that post somehow - belated like. Do you remember where you found Kristin Spitznogle to quote from in english?
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There's a video on youtube where she speaks in english. Not sure which TV channel it has been ripped from but seems to have been posted on youtube by someone dodgy. Anyway, what she has to say is interesting. Video is called; Not going to link to it as the account name is dodge.

Oslo, Norway: 100% of rapes committed by 'non european immigrants'
 
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Casually Red said:
Does this act not also state an asylum seeker must stake a claim of asylum in the first safe country they set foot in ? Do we just cherry pick the bits we like and ignore the rest ?
If we want to stick to the letter of it then nobody gets out of turkey .
And again, people from Tunisia, morocco and Algeria aren't asylum seekers . They're economic migrants and nobody's even obliged to accept them .
Click to expand...

Not a single person minority or otherwise from these three countries can seek asylum - a fantastic statement.

Of course, many asylum seekers do make claims of asylum in the first country they escape to but are forced to live in absolute, abject poverty or deported or used as child labour or fed bacterial expired food etc (thousands of cases in Turkey).

Nobody gets out of Turkey is exactly where this is heading - it's the end of the old EU - every step of aid and tightening is in this direction.

The logic is exactly why refugees from Chile were rejected from being housed in Britain by the Heath government - they had escaped to the nearest neighbour Argentina, they should not be accepted anywhere else [Argentina was (increasingly militarist itself) liable to degrade and humiliate as much as Chile's own post-coup government].

The logic can only mean more people attempt crossings to sea avoiding other non-neighbour countries or try to evade Turkish authorities the minute you are apprehended as having entered Turkey and express a wish to leave that country you aren't classed as a refugee.
 
Anudder Oik said:
There's a video on youtube where she speaks in english. Not sure which TV channel it has been ripped from but seems to have been posted on youtube by someone dodgy. Anyway, what she has to say is interesting. Video is called; Not going to link to it as the account name is dodge.

Oslo, Norway: 100% of rapes committed by 'non european immigrants'
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Yeah, I'd get rid of the bold if I were you, cos that statement has surely got to be bollocks, unless 'rape' only applies to a situation where complete strangers attack you in a dark alley, right?
Which is a whole different conversation and one I'm a bit scared of because I fall well short of the desired bar of proper bona fide feminist posturing there. :facepalm:
 
Casually Red said:
Fair enough, but I thought it was relevant in that it's major news and linked to the overall issue .

This however is even more worrying . Oslo police statistics show that over the past 5 years 100 percent...all...of the ( reported ) stranger rapes carried out in Oslo were by men of immigrant backgrounds . All of them . I'd seen that figure bandied about and assumed it was nazi propaganda and dismissed it . But it's actually true . And that is really shit news . I still instinctively find it unbelievable, I don't want to believe it but there it is . It's incredible .



How is it possible that there's not going to be a popular backlash against this stuff if it carries on like this ? Do we just ignore this ? How is it to be dealt with ? actually dealt with ?
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I can't watch youtube videos at work, but that video was posted in 2011, so unless you have another source, it's not the last 5 years. I had a quick google and found this:
live leak.com/view?i=920_1363387833

(link broken because otherwise it just displays a pie chart rather than going to the article)

and
Gil Ronen’s Fabricated Statistics About Oslo Rapists Being All Muslim

but I don't know how reliable either are, both say the same thing though which is

The claim of 100% sexual assault rate is based exclusively on the figures for “assault rape”, i.e. rape aggravated by physical violence, a category that included 6 of the 152 cases and 5 of the 131 identified individuals. All of those 5 individuals were indeed of African, Middle Eastern or Asian origin. The police report adds that in other cases of assault rape, where the individual responsible was not identified and the police relied on the description provided by the victim, “8 of the perpetrators were African / dark-skinned appearance, 5 were Western / light / Nordic and 4 had an Asian appearance”.
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(from the liveleak link)

Statistics regarding assault rapists:

The Oslo Police District has given a report of rapes in Oslo in 2010. The report shows that for all types of rape, except assault rape, European perpetrators are in the majority, and they are mostly Norwegian. Assault rapes covers only five identified unique person. These have all a foreign origin. The number is however, so low that it does not provide a basis for drawing conclusions with regard to country of origin. Two of them were very young (under 18) and two had severe psychiatric diagnoses and cannot be regarded as representative of their ethnic culture. It is highlighted in the report that generalizations like “Oslo’s rapists are foreigners”, which have been seen in media, are wrong. The report gives no statistics regarding religion of rapists.”

Yours Sincerely,

Grethe Kleivan

Deputy Director General, The Royal Norwegian Ministry of Justice and the Police
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from the loonwatch link.

Before you spin off on some liberal lefty wanker stuff, I haven't posted on this thread, because I'm too busy reading and thinking about it, I think there is a distinct problem with immigration and that Cologne and other places on NYE are significantly different to other events and directly connected with immigration and need to be considered in that light - not least because if we stick our heads in the sand it opens up space for the far right. But let's stick to truths rather than lies or exaggerations.
 
campanula said:
Pepper spray - mine arrived last week - getting one for my daughter too. A bit miffed at the cost (almost £15) so am looking at a home-made version - since I grow some furious chile peppers. Would feel obliged to test it on myself though (not after maiming or blinding...just stopping...which sort of puts me off the amateur hour version).

To be fair, as an aging crone, I don't feel I am likely to be targeted for groping anytime soon...

The horrible evasiveness regarding the Cologne attacks has hardened a pervasive anxiety - police, authorities hopeless (unless you are in a far more privileged and secure position than I am). Regardless of the sexual nature of this lot of assaults, the increasing polarities in a vastly unequal society is leading me, at least, down something of a weird rabbit hole.
Click to expand...


Telescopic batons are good too! Never hit someone over the head though. A good wack on the knee cap will immobilise them and give you time to get away!
 
bluescreen said:
Isn't pepper spray illegal in the UK? I'd be wary of carrying it if you're going on a demo in case you are stopped by the police.
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Yes, sadly it is and mine doesn't contain pepper - just one of those ID red paint jobs...which is why I definitely contemplated making my own with added ingredients.

The whole weapons and self-defence thing is slightly puzzling - for example, I routinely carry a large array of absolutely lethal tools in my daily work but would probably not really wish to swan into town carrying a razor sharp Japanese pole saw or Hori-Hori knife or even a fearsome daisy grubber...but should the shit really hit the fan, I fail to see how these rather arbitrary distinctions between tools and weapons are likely to be enforced.

I confess to waving my 'pepper' spray threateningly at the youngest and most bellicose offspring when I detected a slight hesitation in offering me a cup of tea...although he then raced downstairs to get his Klingon throwing axe he proudly made himself (our home is a tad lacking in peace and harmony - probably the overcrowding).
 
The idea that 100% of rapes over 5 years in a city the size of Oslo were committed by one particular demographic (unless the demographic is men in general, of course), is about as believable as me claiming to be an intergalactic space merchant on a trading mission from the far side of Andromeda.
 
BigTom said:
Before you spin off on some liberal lefty wanker stuff, I haven't posted on this thread, because I'm too busy reading and thinking about it, I think there is a distinct problem with immigration and that Cologne and other places on NYE are significantly different to other events and directly connected with immigration and need to be considered in that light - not least because if we stick our heads in the sand it opens up space for the far right. But let's stick to truths rather than lies or exaggerations.
Click to expand...

You can't force a person to post more but.. please do if you can, and thanks for the thinking about it all, sometimes that seems like a rare commodity or a risk round here.
 
bimble said:
You can't force a person to post more but.. please do if you can, and thanks for the thinking about it all, sometimes that seems like a rare commodity or a risk round here.
Click to expand...

I may well.. and re-reading my post you've quoted, I want to add that it's not really concerns about space opening up for the far right*, the main concern is in working out how we act to stop this shit and stop more women being raped/assualted. That's both in terms of any police type response to this particular form of sexual assualt and our societal response - and if we ignore or try to hide the immigration factor, then we're going to fail to stop this from happening repeatedly in the future.

*it's just that in this context, CR is reposting far right propaganda and appearing to get sucked into it (though I don't think and am not suggesting he is racist or on that side of things at all) so my immediate thoughts were about that aspect of this stuff which tbh is not that important compared to how this affects women.
 
On the apples and avocados principle: Mona Eltahawy's 2012 article 'Why do they hate us?' in Foreign Policy focused on ME misogyny, with some sickening details. It attracted criticism from those alleging she was pandering to western prejudices, especially Islamophobia, but it's a powerful piece. Here's a later Guardian article about her book Headscarves and Hymens (a book I haven't read), where she expands on her argument.
Headscarves and Hymens: Why the Middle East Needs a Sexual Revolution by Mona Eltahawy – review
 
The tally at Koln now stands at around 500 counts of sexual harassment and 3 counts or rape - a serious montrosity. I've read about a dozen news reports summarising police analysis and testimonies, there seem to have been pickpocket men as one group and gropers and rapists as another, the level of crossover is undetermined. The report which the Mail refers to but doesn't link to says 18% of victims in Cologne were males.

But what is also important is the degeneration of sections of civil society into calling for an end to refugee status for males and/or deportation for existing male refugees, or massive increases in police control and militarisation of refugees' lives, or bans on movements and participation of refugees in German society, or calling for pressure on Turkey or Lebanon or Greece not to allow refugees the right to move. What's mindboggling is leftists in other countries urging Germany to act in a more right-wing manner. I can sense that within 80 years your leftist grandchildren will be refugees from ruptures, repression or conflicts within European countries.
Much leftist feeling is that action for the right of refuge is a sort of lady bountiful act to prove yourself better than other lowlife - I see it as insurance for the next century.

Freiburg now Pubs and clubs in German town of Freiburg forbid refugees | News | DW.COM | 23.01.2016

Berlin's SPD + external Grune-support local government plans Berlin town hall meeting protests discrimination against refugees - World Socialist Web Site

“Two square meters per person, no privacy, without any perspective”, he said. “People cannot sleep at night, they get sick. ... You cannot treat people like this”.
A young Lebanese man, who has lived in Berlin for some time, joined in the discussion: “My parents fled from Lebanon to Germany. We were very lucky that there were no camps then”, he said. “When we arrived in a refugee home, we were several families and had contact with Germans. I played with German children. How is this possible in the accommodation at Tempelhof? How are children here to speak German if there are no Germans around them? They will not even get out of this airport!”
A volunteer who teaches German courses in the hangars, in emotional remarks directed at the podium, said: “You have thanked the volunteers here. I must say, I do not need your thanks! Do you know what it’s like in the hangar, in this level of noise? I am totally exhausted every time after 90 minutes teaching German. What should the refugees say who have to live here 24 hours a day, who have no showers, no possibility to prepare food, no possibility for quiet, and no way to come into contact with those who have already lived here longer”.

The situations are not good - socialisation of refugees, contrary to mantras about welcoming society and free handouts, has declined over recent years.
The trend will be for countries such as Germany to absorb them as semi-citizens deprived of language and participation but a new source of cheap leabour (the German employers federation recently suggested exemption to minimum wage law to overcome prejudice and boost hope), constantly on license one false move and deportation can follow.
 
BigTom said:
re-reading my post you've quoted, I want to add that it's not really concerns about space opening up for the far right*, the main concern is in working out how we act to stop this shit and stop more women being raped/assualted. That's both in terms of any police type response to this particular form of sexual assualt and our societal response - and if we ignore or try to hide the immigration factor, then we're going to fail to stop this from happening repeatedly in the future..
Click to expand...

Exactly.

BigTom said:
*it's just that in this context, CR is reposting far right propaganda and appearing to get sucked into it (though I don't think and am not suggesting he is racist or on that side of things at all) so my immediate thoughts were about that aspect of this stuff which tbh is not that important compared to how this affects women.
Click to expand...


Yep. It gets a bit lonely here sometimes, out on the windy ledge with CR as my apparent comrade in arms.
The article he posted today though is the best thing I've read to date on the whole sorry mess of well-meaning people's response to the events .

It's actually got logic in it, and compassion & courage.
This one:
First Cologne, Now Sweden: How Left-Wing Apologism Is Fueling Right-Wing Populism

The short version, in bitesized chunks for those who can’t spare 2 minutes to read her work, goes a bit like this (all these are direct quotes):

  • Perhaps purely because this is the sort of thing the xenophobes will jump on, many on the left seemed reluctant to touch it.
  • Frankly, we on the left must wake up and become more willing to describe the world as it is.
  • This sort of obfuscation is dangerous not just because it makes detection of the actual perpetrators more difficult, but also because it is driving otherwise reasonable people away from the left and all too often into the arms of right-wing populism.
  • nuance and pragmatism are frequently becoming trickier in the ideological battle trenches of the digital era. Perhaps because of the constant demand for brevity in tweets and Internet comment pieces, a popular, and often false, thought association ensues: if you think this, then you must also think that.
  • Suppressing debate and dissent within the left itself, this phenomenon has become a kind of digital McCarthyism. And it is driving people away from the very political associations that would protect their public services and democratic rights.
  • One must ask: how is covering up for young men who seem determined to gleefully flout European norms and laws going to help those thousands of innocent would-be refugees who might otherwise be offered a haven were it not for the impending right-wing blowback against the worst excesses of liberal apologism?


And if the author is a secret undercover Breivik-type then she slipped under the radar quite cleverly seeing as she's currently "funded by the Arts and Humanities Research Council of England, for her upcoming novel about refugees” .
 
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pepper spray, home made or otherwise is a nicking. Telescopic batons are a nicking. However if you aren't in the stop & search demographic for bored coppers then I could see the point in carrying the spray and thinking 'devil take the consequences should you use it'.
 
BigTom said:
*it's just that in this context, CR is reposting far right propaganda and appearing to get sucked into it (though I don't think and am not suggesting he is racist or on that side of things at all) ...
Click to expand...

Could it be that there exists a parallel situation, where real concern coioncides with right wing exploitation of a real theme? I don't see CR reposting any far right propaganda, that insinuates that the events are being exagerated and so too are the consequences.

We need to step back and remove the far right from the equation, then look at it for what it is.
 
DotCommunist said:
pepper spray, home made or otherwise is a nicking. Telescopic batons are a nicking. However if you aren't in the stop & search demographic for bored coppers then I could see the point in carrying the spray and thinking 'devil take the consequences should you use it'.
Click to expand...

Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six ...
 
Some more detail on the racist loon source Gil Ronen, just to give you some idea where he's coming from.

Interestingly, Gil Ronen had cited another person as an authority on “Muslim rape waves”: the then-pseudonymous Eurabist blogger known as “Fjordman,” who was a primary inspiration for Anders Breivik. Much of Breivik’s manifesto was authored by Fjordman. In the June Arutz Sheva article, Ronen approvingly cited Fjordman’s warning about an earlier “immigrant [and Muslim] rape wave in Sweden,” from back in 2005. - See more at: Muslims ban Christmas and rape white women, in latest Latma satire
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Muslims ban Christmas and rape white women, in latest Latma satire

Are we really going down a road where sources like this are going to be tolerated on Urban and people have to be concerned about whether they'll be represented as 'liberal handwringers' and worse for doubting them?
 
Casually Red said:
At last, an actual voice of sanity from among the liberal left . Agree with every bloody word of this one . It's definitely not just me imagining all this .

First Cologne, Now Sweden: How Left-Wing Apologism Is Fueling Right-Wing Populism

" knee jerk political tribalism at its finest "

Spot on missus . Exactly right .

Maybe she's a secret " narzi " as well though .
Click to expand...

Finally, someone on our side speaking some sense. I was beginning to think that I must be moving to the right because stuff like this is making me angry. Especially that video of the migrant march and the English guy shouting 'nazi scum'. :mad:
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Are we really going down a road where sources like this are going to be tolerated on Urban and people having to be concerned about whether they'll be represented as 'liberal handwringers' and worse for doubting them?
Click to expand...

Please try to think, and then try to be honest. I don't know you but you're becoming a symbol in my mind of exactly what the problem is with well-meaning people, the kind of people that I usually like best: Have you had time to look at the article above by Bonny Brooks?

Anudder Oik said:
We need to step back and remove the far right from the equation, then look at it for what it is.
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What the Oik said.
 
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