Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[sihhi]

Exactly.



And if the author is a secret undercover Breivik-type then she slipped under the radar quite cleverly seeing as she's currently "funded by the Arts and Humanities Research Council of England, for her upcoming novel about refugees” .

It's an OK article but this "I'm sorry, what"

Channel 4 News broadcast an interview with a Tunisian refugee who said with a straight face: "It is not the fault of the refugees -- the couple of refugees who were there, who might also be culprits. It's the fault of the laws and bureaucracy in Germany that say you have to wait six months or one year for the day when you can find a legal job." I'm sorry, what?

suggests the author doesn't actually live in the real world as she claims and demands that the left do aswell. The reason people join usually Algerian-dominated pickpocket gangs is, in part, because 1 they have no jobs or 2 they have to repay people-smugglers the brokers, organisers (often linked to other criminality) who offer a chance to escape. Once you are in the criminal world of pickpocketing tourists things decline and men get caught up in worse and more sexist criminality related to prostitution. This was not far from the case of asylum seekers from Turkey to Germany in the late 1980s and 1990s it was horrid and rotten, but it's what happens.

We could of course take her advice and close the borders:-

Recently, two activists I know freshly returned from work with migrants and admitted sheepishly to me that their time on the front line had led them to consider -- briefly -- that perhaps Germany should close its borders. They told me that most of the migrants they had seen were not actually refugees.

In this way more of the unemployed refugee men can be either exploited elsewhere or the criminality associated with the transportation across borders can remain out of sight.

In our reluctance to face up to the painful -- yet credible -- reports of migrant involvement in these horrific Cologne attacks, we have unwittingly given succor to those who would deny haven to any refugees at all.

How have they not been faced up to? The liars have been the police and their handmaidens, not the left. Still, some call for more preemptory police powers against non-citizen populations.

The conclusion seems to be let's allow fewer refugees so that this stops some others not allowing even fewer refugees, it's not consistent.
I am not saying I have an answer but keep all of them/all the men in Turkey seems to be her unspoken answer. If you do separate men from women then families will be broken up never to return.

 

[BigTom]

Could it be that there exists a parallel situation, where real concern coioncides with right wing exploitation of a real theme? I don't see CR reposting any far right propaganda, that insinuates that the events are being exagerated and so too are the consequences.

We need to step back and remove the far right from the equation, then look at it for what it is.

Couldn't watch that video at work, but when I went to look for alternative sources, all I could find was far right sites, and the two responses I posted. afaic the "all rapes in the past 5 years in Norway is by immigrants", is far right propaganda - not least because it was one year (2010) and the majority of rapists were not immigrants - the far right cherry picked one type of rape and then expounded from along there, and recently have been reposting this lie claiming it covers the past 5 years (ie 2011-2015) and not just 2010 as it actually was. CR was not removing the far right from the situation and looking at it for what it is.

 

[bimble]

The reason people join usually Algerian-dominated pickpocket gangs is, in part, because 1 they have no jobs or 2 they have to repay people-smugglers the brokers, organisers (often linked to other criminality) who offer a chance to escape. Once you are in the criminal world of pickpocketing tourists things decline and men get caught up in worse and more sexist criminality related to prostitution. .

That makes sense but .. it explains street robbery as a means of survival and repaying debts but doesn't help with mass sexual assault, ripping clothes off women who are trying to get out of a train station, groping them so as to leave bruises on their skin etc..
Sorry but no, economics does not explain this.

Also you say

How have they not been faced up to? The liars have been the police and their handmaidens, not the left.

and I can't follow you there, sadly.


But do agree with what you seem to be suggesting solution-wise, as in the only way forward is in proper concerted serious integration into the places where people find themselves living, that you can't stick thousands of boys/ young men in a barracks dormitory outside town give them a bus pass and an armband and expect everything to be fine.

 

[BigTom]

OK, so what's the hypothesis here? That NYE behaviour merely resembles the Egyptian accounts or that it's somehow patterned on it? If the latter, what would evidence for that look like?



I think I can see several accounts being suggested, of how the NYE behaviour was actively patterned on practices originating in either Egypt or North Africa, rather than just coincidentally resembling it.

1) Gates of Vienna crowd - initially seemed to want to say 'this is just them being good Muslims'

2) Another big favourite seems to be - 'This is just how (all) men from those places treat (our) women'

3) This is part of a spectrum of specifically criminal behaviour, adopting street crime practices from a number of regions, including the Maghreb countries and that we now have gangs of criminals infesting all our major cities doing 'waltzing' and occasionally, as in NY/E, escalating to outright sex attacks while groping women and nicking their phones.

4) The Tahir Square attacks became the model for either a deliberate rape-gang organised by means yet to emerge, maybe via PlayStation network or similar, or for some less structured, self organising variant.

6) Tahir Square was security forces acting politically and so was this.

7) It was a false flag operation caused by agents of the Jooz to create racial tension, also lizards ...

8) The resemblance is just a coincidence.

I have a feeling I've missed some out, so please feel free to supply alternatives.

I guess this seems like a good post to respond to to give my general thoughts bimble (which are close to yours I think)

Bernie Gunther you've missed out 5 for some reason? Is it cos you are a dodgy liberal lefty and trying to cover it up?

For me, this is bits of 2 and 3, except that the way you've phrased 2 is very much of the far right, rather than of feminism. If 2 said "this is just how men treat women" then you'd be getting part of it imo (not all men obviously). There is the problem of patriarchy which is global and leads/allows sexual assualts to happen.
Where someone comes from loosely defines the form those sexual assaults take - so North African is this shit, India we see gang rapes, uk it's maybe drug rapes. Thus this kind of mass sexual assault is specific to immigrants from North Africa - but that's not to suggest that all or many immigrants would do this or think it was ok. Along with this I think there is a bigger problem with how women are treated in Islamic cultures than in western cultures (including in the UK, I live in an area which is mostly 1st-3rd generation pakistani muslim immigrants and my female friends say they get a lot more (verbal) harassment in my area than in surrounding areas).

Add in 3) as there will definitely have been immigrant criminal gangs planning to rob/pickpocket, then make those gangs immigrants from north africa and at least some of them will see the opportunity for sexual assaults and have the people around them who will help them do it. I find it easier to imagine a situation where scores or low hundreds of people do this in an organised way and then through wider networks (including social media) they draw many more immigrants to the location, with the promise of party and easy sex from permissive western women and you get up to the thousand or so in cologne. I find it harder to understand how a thousand or so people could organise this in a tight fashion, but we don't have enough information to have any real idea what went on, how many were actually involved or how tightly organised it was.

In all, I think the events in Cologne and elsewhere on nye is distinct from sexual assaults at other large public events, I think the form of sexual assault is different, and the scale of it too. I think it needs specific responses (to both the form, and the immigrants' culture) as well as general responses (to patriarchy/sexism).

6) I'm curious about - Tahrir Square was obvious which security forces and why they would do it - in this case, which security forces are claimed to be acting and why? Is it pure conspiraloonery, like 7?

In terms of what to do about it, no fucking idea. Heavier police presence at large public gatherings seems obvious, beyond that I can only think we keep pushing the feminism rock up the hill and seeing where that gets us, specific programs aimed at immigrants doesn't seem unfair but it's not like there's no problem in wider society on this score either so we might not need to direct it. I'm not happy with the idea of restricting immigration, we need to deal with the problem here (and the problems that cause migration - war and poverty).

 

[bimble]

Bernie Gunther you've missed out 5 for some reason? Is it cos you are a dodgy liberal lefty and trying to cover it up?

Fifth column ftw.

But yes, me i agree with all of the above.
Apart from that maybe I have more faith than you do in the potential of a concerted effort at education - compulsory - on consent and on women's rights and how they got to where they are so far, historically, legally etc, in any given jurisdiction - for all new arrivals to relatively sexually liberal countries (and also for all secondary school children living in them) as a way of preventing this sort of thing from becoming some sort of new normal that we need more CCTV and police for.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I guess this seems like a good post to respond to to give my general thoughts bimble (which are close to yours I think)

Bernie Gunther you've missed out 5 for some reason? Is it cos you are a dodgy liberal lefty and trying to cover it up?

For me, this is bits of 2 and 3, except that the way you've phrased 2 is very much of the far right, rather than of feminism. If 2 said "this is just how men treat women" then you'd be getting part of it imo (not all men obviously). There is the problem of patriarchy which is global and leads/allows sexual assualts to happen.
Where someone comes from loosely defines the form those sexual assaults take - so North African is this shit, India we see gang rapes, uk it's maybe drug rapes. Thus this kind of mass sexual assault is specific to immigrants from North Africa - but that's not to suggest that all or many immigrants would do this or think it was ok. Along with this I think there is a bigger problem with how women are treated in Islamic cultures than in western cultures (including in the UK, I live in an area which is mostly 1st-3rd generation pakistani muslim immigrants and my female friends say they get a lot more (verbal) harassment in my area than in surrounding areas).

Add in 3) as there will definitely have been immigrant criminal gangs planning to rob/pickpocket, then make those gangs immigrants from north africa and at least some of them will see the opportunity for sexual assaults and have the people around them who will help them do it. I find it easier to imagine a situation where scores or low hundreds of people do this in an organised way and then through wider networks (including social media) they draw many more immigrants to the location, with the promise of party and easy sex from permissive western women and you get up to the thousand or so in cologne. I find it harder to understand how a thousand or so people could organise this in a tight fashion, but we don't have enough information to have any real idea what went on, how many were actually involved or how tightly organised it was.

In all, I think the events in Cologne and elsewhere on nye is distinct from sexual assaults at other large public events, I think the form of sexual assault is different, and the scale of it too. I think it needs specific responses (to both the form, and the immigrants' culture) as well as general responses (to patriarchy/sexism).

6) I'm curious about - Tahrir Square was obvious which security forces and why they would do it - in this case, which security forces are claimed to be acting and why? Is it pure conspiraloonery, like 7?

In terms of what to do about it, no fucking idea. Heavier police presence at large public gatherings seems obvious, beyond that I can only think we keep pushing the feminism rock up the hill and seeing where that gets us, specific programs aimed at immigrants doesn't seem unfair but it's not like there's no problem in wider society on this score either so we might not need to direct it. I'm not happy with the idea of restricting immigration, we need to deal with the problem here (and the problems that cause migration - war and poverty).

What I was up to there was looking at the resemblance between many of the accounts of NYE and the stuff which it keeps getting compared to, asking 'if the resemblance is more than coincidence, what's the patterning mechanism?' Or something like that.

So from that point of view there's a significant difference between: "this is just how men treat women' (with maybe some stuff about group dynamics of sex offences) and 'this is just how those (foreign) men treat (our) women'

The former is a truth that feminists have been trying to get taken seriously for centuries and the latter is something that has been triggering lynchings and pogroms for at least as long, most likely for far longer. It's very clear (and very sad) that the latter pushes more people's buttons and pushes them a lot harder than the former.

That's why you get racist loons like Anders Brievik's political guru Fjordman promoting stuff like that Norwegian story people were getting all excited about over the page, and that's why I think a climate, like the one we seem to have here, where you have to be willing to take a bunch of shit if you dare to question such accounts is a seriously unhealthy and worrying one. I'd expect that reaction on a conspiraloon forum, to find it here is pretty fucking horrifying.

I''m inclined to agree that it's probably some nasty mixture of let's call it 2a), male pack sexual aggression, 3) crime gang patterns (which is a whole other topic involving people smuggling etc) and maybe a bit of 4) with poorly socialised lumpen types watching Tahir square footage and thinking it was cool. I'd be really interested to hear the ways the attackers of various types justified their behaviour to each other. That'd tell us a great deal more than we presently know about it.

 

[treelover]

I''m inclined to agree that it's probably some nasty mixture of let's call it 2a), male pack sexual aggression, 3) crime gang patterns (which is a whole other topic involving people smuggling etc) and maybe a bit of 4) with poorly socialised lumpen types watching Tahir square footage and thinking it was cool. I'd be really interested to hear the ways the attackers of various types justified their behaviour to each other. That'd tell us a great deal more than we presently know about it.

I imagine they will come up with some imaginative retrospective reasons.

 

[bimble]

that's why I think a climate, like the one we seem to have here, where you have to be willing to take a bunch of shit if you dare to question such accounts is a seriously unhealthy and worrying one. I'd expect that reaction on a conspiraloon forum, to find it here is pretty fucking horrifying.

What are you talking about? The Norwegian rape stats got sorted quite quickly on this thread I thought..
When you said "a climate, like the one we seem to have here, where you have to be willing to take a bunch of shit if you dare to question such accounts is a seriously unhealthy and worrying one", what were you talking about? What accounts have people had to take a bunch of shit for questioning here ?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Loads of course most of them unreported. Stranger rape / assault is usually around 5% I think.

The much-mooted by the media "dragged off the street" stranger rape does indeed come out at about 5%, but the definition of stranger rape tends to be contested. In the UK "acquaintance rape" is one of the terms used for rapes which happen after two strangers meet in a social setting (pub, club etcetera), and rape results, but should really be classified as "stranger rape", as the victim is barely acquainted with the perpetrator.

 

[BigTom]

What I was up to there was looking at the resemblance between many of the accounts of NYE and the stuff which it keeps getting compared to, asking 'if the resemblance is more than coincidence, what's the patterning mechanism?' Or something like that.

So from that point of view there's a significant difference between: "this is just how men treat women' (with maybe some stuff about group dynamics of sex offences) and 'this is just how those (foreign) men treat (our) women'

The former is a truth that feminists have been trying to get taken seriously for centuries and the latter is something that has been triggering lynchings and pogroms for at least as long, most likely for far longer. It's very clear (and very sad) that the latter pushes more people's buttons and pushes them a lot harder than the former.

That's why you get racist loons like Anders Brievik's political guru Fjordman promoting stuff like that Norwegian story people were getting all excited about over the page, and that's why I think a climate, like the one we seem to have here, where you have to be willing to take a bunch of shit if you dare to question such accounts is a seriously unhealthy and worrying one. I'd expect that reaction on a conspiraloon forum, to find it here is pretty fucking horrifying.

I''m inclined to agree that it's probably some nasty mixture of let's call it 2a), male pack sexual aggression, 3) crime gang patterns (which is a whole other topic involving people smuggling etc) and maybe a bit of 4) with poorly socialised lumpen types watching Tahir square footage and thinking it was cool. I'd be really interested to hear the ways the attackers of various types justified their behaviour to each other. That'd tell us a great deal more than we presently know about it.

Yeah, I thought you meant 2) to be explicitly of the right wing accounts of this, 2a) works for me. I should have included 4) as well, although that was implicit where I was talking about the form of 2a) being loosely dependent on the culture(s) the perpetrators come from, I don't link it's (necessarily) poorly socialised lumpen types either, culture is pervasive, rapists exist at all levels, and I bet in India the gang rapists are from all classes, and I know in the uk drug rapists are too, and I would expect (to the extent that immigrants can be, or maybe where they were in their own country) the same to be true of the cologne etc rapists.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Yeah, I thought you meant 2) to be explicitly of the right wing accounts of this, 2a) works for me. I should have included 4) as well, although that was implicit where I was talking about the form of 2a) being loosely dependent on the culture(s) the perpetrators come from, I don't link it's (necessarily) poorly socialised lumpen types either, culture is pervasive, rapists exist at all levels, and I bet in India the gang rapists are from all classes, and I know in the uk drug rapists are too, and I would expect (to the extent that immigrants can be, or maybe where they were in their own country) the same to be true of the cologne etc rapists.

Lumpen probably doesn't capture what I meant very well. Poorly socialised does though, whether that implies stuck in a refugee centre with no prospects of integration to society and no outside contacts that aren't petty criminals of some description, or whether it means middle-class Gamergate types. Fucked up enough to think that kind of stuff was a cool thing to get involved with, whether it was entirely spontaneous or more or less planned in advance.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I''m inclined to agree that it's probably some nasty mixture of let's call it 2a), male pack sexual aggression, 3) crime gang patterns (which is a whole other topic involving people smuggling etc) and maybe a bit of 4) with poorly socialised lumpen types watching Tahir square footage and thinking it was cool. I'd be really interested to hear the ways the attackers of various types justified their behaviour to each other. That'd tell us a great deal more than we presently know about it.

I have to wonder too if part of the mix is 5) resentment connected to perceived differences in social standing/class/wealth.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I have to wonder too if part of the mix is 5) resentment connected to perceived differences in social standing/class/wealth.

What research there is on gang rape often highlights revenge as a theme. Men don't as a rule, sexually assault women in packs because they want a girlfriend.

This is where I think escalation from robbery comes in as well, on a spectrum of aggression and domination.

 

[BigTom]

Lumpen probably doesn't capture what I meant very well. Poorly socialised does though, whether that implies stuck in a refugee centre with no prospects of integration to society and no outside contacts that aren't petty criminals of some description, or whether it means middle-class Gamergate types. Fucked up enough to think that kind of stuff was a cool thing to get involved with, whether it was entirely spontaneous or a bit planned.

ah ok, put alongside lumpen I read poorly socialised rather differently to what you meant, I think it's almost inevitable that immigrants who arrive via people smugglers or refugee routes will be poorly socialised initially, and there needs to be support to help them socialise (which can be as simple as free language lessons or extra support to get jobs - I can see the kind of interview technique/cv writing courses could be useful to people who come from somewhere that has a different culture for getting work for instance). I'd also say that it is/should be a tautology that someone who will sexually assault/rape is poorly socialised.

I can't really see this being entirely spontaneous, I reckon it was fairly well planned, at least by a central core of people, as a robbing exercise, which some people will have used as an opportunity to sexually assault/rape women and others seeing that will have joined in without having thought about it beforehand. Lots more people stopped anyone getting anywhere near helping the women (and I think this will have been planned in the context of robbing people) and all of them are just as bad as each other.

 

[bimble]

Yeah, I thought you meant 2) to be explicitly of the right wing accounts of this, 2a) works for me. I should have included 4) as well, although that was implicit where I was talking about the form of 2a) being loosely dependent on the culture(s) the perpetrators come from, I don't link it's (necessarily) poorly socialised lumpen types either, culture is pervasive, rapists exist at all levels, and I bet in India the gang rapists are from all classes, and I know in the uk drug rapists are too, and I would expect (to the extent that immigrants can be, or maybe where they were in their own country) the same to be true of the cologne etc rapists.

hang on. What 2a again? Is it a midpoint between Bernie's offerings of

2) Another big favourite seems to be - 'This is just how (all) men from those places treat (our) women'

&

3) This is part of a spectrum of specifically criminal behaviour, adopting street crime practices from a number of regions, including the Maghreb countries and that we now have gangs of criminals infesting all our major cities doing 'waltzing' and occasionally, as in NY/E, escalating to outright sex attacks while groping women and nicking their phones.

?

I think we need a proper poll, choose your own top three explanations. But Bernie's don't do it for me because it's definitely not a single one of the above.
Bernie Gunther if 'gamergate' is the thing you keep using as a way to help you think about this with (you've mentioned it about 4 times) I can't help but recommend you get out more, or make friends with some females who have walked about in the world on their own on actual streets etc.

 

[bimble]

This is where I think escalation from robbery comes in as well, on a spectrum of aggression and domination.

No. This stuff, the 500+ sexual assaults in that crowd for instance, or what happened in Tahrir Square, those attacks on women were not a an addendum an afterthought to nicking someone's phone.
If you want to think about rape / assault of women as a sort of theft you'd not be alone but you'd be barking up a very ugly tree if you know what I mean.

What research there is on gang rape often highlights revenge as a theme. Men don't as a rule, sexually assault women in packs because they want a girlfriend.

True. In this case (mass assault) what do you think the revenge might be about ?

 

[BigTom]

hang on. What 2a again? Is it a midpoint between Bernie's offerings of

&

?

I think we need a proper poll, choose your own top three explanations. But Bernie's don't do it for me because it's definitely not a single one of the above.
Bernie Gunther if 'gamergate' is the thing you keep using as a way to help you think about this with (you've mentioned it about 4 times) I can't help but recommend you get out more, or make friends with some females who have walked about in the world on their own on actual streets etc.

2) was 2) Another big favourite seems to be - 'This is just how (all) men from those places treat (our) women'

2a) is similar - "This is just how men treat women" but the above phrasing comes from the far right, this phrasing comes from feminism, but they both express a similar idea (if idea is the right word, I don't think it is, but I can't think of anything better right now). It matters here because it recognises that this is a wider problem and not just a problem with immigrants (though the problem expresses itself differently, which is important).

I think your comment to Bernie is unfair - gamergate involves another form of (particular to western world? english language world?) mass sexual assault in the form of online rape threats. It's not as relevant here as India's gang rapes (or the Tahrir Square stuff), but it's not entirely unrelated.

 

[bimble]

I think your comment to Bernie is unfair - gamergate involves another form of (particular to western world? english language world?) mass sexual assault in the form of online rape threats. It's not as relevant here as India's gang rapes (or the Tahrir Square stuff), but it's not entirely unrelated.

Yep you're right, I was just doing a 'first world problems' type jibe on Bernie, and those sorts of arguments are always rubbish. But do feel that india's tradition of 'eve teasing' - and the fact that women in so many parts of the world would never even think of walking home alone in a pair of jeans after dark like I just have without a care in the world - is.. more relevant than gamergate.
Still, this thread has made me wonder, a lot, about the relative tinyness proportionally of female voices here and in the media / politics in general.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

It's not unrelated but it gets a very different treatment.

That's precisely why it's an illuminating comparison.

Same argument as Chomsky uses with paired examples to illuminate propaganda.

 

[bimble]

It's not unrelated but it gets a very different treatment.

That's precisely why it's an illuminating comparison.

Same argument as Chomsky uses with paired examples to illuminate propaganda.

Could you do a short version of what you mean? I've only heard the angry feminist side of gamergate because I think it all played out on twitter which I have no clue at all really how to use.

 

[treelover]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/15/fashion/high-heels-self-defense.html
View attachment 82666

Really wish some of those women had been able to do that on NYE, though the scum might have been even more violent then.

 

[bimble]

Really wish some of those women had been able to do that on NYE, though the scum might have been even more violent then.

The difficult bit is learning to walk in those weapons with the 6 inch spiked metal at the back, once you've mastered that the rest is second nature.

 

[coley]

Exactly.




Yep. It gets a bit lonely here sometimes, out on the windy ledge with CR as my apparent comrade in arms.
The article he posted today though is the best thing I've read to date on the whole sorry mess of well-meaning people's response to the events .

It's actually got logic in it, and compassion & courage.
This one:
First Cologne, Now Sweden: How Left-Wing Apologism Is Fueling Right-Wing Populism

The short version, in bitesized chunks for those who can’t spare 2 minutes to read her work, goes a bit like this (all these are direct quotes):

• Perhaps purely because this is the sort of thing the xenophobes will jump on, many on the left seemed reluctant to touch it.
• Frankly, we on the left must wake up and become more willing to describe the world as it is.
• This sort of obfuscation is dangerous not just because it makes detection of the actual perpetrators more difficult, but also because it is driving otherwise reasonable people away from the left and all too often into the arms of right-wing populism.
• nuance and pragmatism are frequently becoming trickier in the ideological battle trenches of the digital era. Perhaps because of the constant demand for brevity in tweets and Internet comment pieces, a popular, and often false, thought association ensues: if you think this, then you must also think that.
• Suppressing debate and dissent within the left itself, this phenomenon has become a kind of digital McCarthyism. And it is driving people away from the very political associations that would protect their public services and democratic rights.
• One must ask: how is covering up for young men who seem determined to gleefully flout European norms and laws going to help those thousands of innocent would-be refugees who might otherwise be offered a haven were it not for the impending right-wing blowback against the worst excesses of liberal apologism?

And if the author is a secret undercover Breivik-type then she slipped under the radar quite cleverly seeing as she's currently "funded by the Arts and Humanities Research Council of England, for her upcoming novel about refugees” .

"Yep. It gets a bit lonely here sometimes, out on the windy ledge with CR as my apparent comrade in arms"

Don't get too near the edge
Some of us on here can believe what CRs saying,but it's at such odds with his perambulations on other issues that make it dificult for to people take him seriously on this particular issue.
Who knows, have the refugees renamed an Irish town 'Damascus'
?

 

[Casually Red]

Not a single person minority or otherwise from these three countries can seek asylum - a fantastic statement.

Of course, many asylum seekers do make claims of asylum in the first country they escape to but are forced to live in absolute, abject poverty or deported or used as child labour or fed bacterial expired food etc (thousands of cases in Turkey).

Nobody gets out of Turkey is exactly where this is heading - it's the end of the old EU - every step of aid and tightening is in this direction.

The logic is exactly why refugees from Chile were rejected from being housed in Britain by the Heath government - they had escaped to the nearest neighbour Argentina, they should not be accepted anywhere else [Argentina was (increasingly militarist itself) liable to degrade and humiliate as much as Chile's own post-coup government].

The logic can only mean more people attempt crossings to sea avoiding other non-neighbour countries or try to evade Turkish authorities the minute you are apprehended as having entered Turkey and express a wish to leave that country you aren't classed as a refugee.

You misunderstand what I'm saying . It was you who stated the articles will be breached if there's deportations for gamgsterism , criminality , sexual assault etc . So therefore it shouldnt happen . I've pointed Out to you in return what strict adherence to those articles actually entails if you insist on going down that route . You seem to want it both ways .

 

[coley]

I would like to think that after Rotherham and the myriad of other cities where grooming gangs operated and operate there would not be a similar response here, but I know I'm wrong.

Take a look at "operation sanctuary" in particular the emphasis at the outset compared to those arrested to date.

 

[Casually Red]

even your able contributions?

Ive been saying pretty much exactly what she's saying. Except she's more eloquent and polite . But yeah, the position she's putting forward is essentially my take on the whole thing .

 

[bimble]

Ive been saying pretty much exactly what she's saying. Except she's more eloquent and polite . But yeah, the position she's putting forward is essentially my take on the whole thing .

Me too. Which does not mean that I agree with you on anything else at all ever.
I sent the author of that bit of writing a message and she wrote right back within minutes, and followed me on twitter, a thing which I have no clue how to actually use. Which maybe shows how lonesome this subject can be.

 

[Casually Red]

Exactly.




Yep. It gets a bit lonely here sometimes, out on the windy ledge with CR as my apparent comrade in arms.
The article he posted today though is the best thing I've read to date on the whole sorry mess of well-meaning people's response to the events .

It's actually got logic in it, and compassion & courage.
This one:
First Cologne, Now Sweden: How Left-Wing Apologism Is Fueling Right-Wing Populism

The short version, in bitesized chunks for those who can’t spare 2 minutes to read her work, goes a bit like this (all these are direct quotes):

• Perhaps purely because this is the sort of thing the xenophobes will jump on, many on the left seemed reluctant to touch it.
• Frankly, we on the left must wake up and become more willing to describe the world as it is.
• This sort of obfuscation is dangerous not just because it makes detection of the actual perpetrators more difficult, but also because it is driving otherwise reasonable people away from the left and all too often into the arms of right-wing populism.
• nuance and pragmatism are frequently becoming trickier in the ideological battle trenches of the digital era. Perhaps because of the constant demand for brevity in tweets and Internet comment pieces, a popular, and often false, thought association ensues: if you think this, then you must also think that.
• Suppressing debate and dissent within the left itself, this phenomenon has become a kind of digital McCarthyism. And it is driving people away from the very political associations that would protect their public services and democratic rights.
• One must ask: how is covering up for young men who seem determined to gleefully flout European norms and laws going to help those thousands of innocent would-be refugees who might otherwise be offered a haven were it not for the impending right-wing blowback against the worst excesses of liberal apologism?

And if the author is a secret undercover Breivik-type then she slipped under the radar quite cleverly seeing as she's currently "funded by the Arts and Humanities Research Council of England, for her upcoming novel about refugees” .

I'm really glad I found that article . I hope there are more like her willing to speak out about ALL of this stuff .

 

[Casually Red]

Some more detail on the racist loon source Gil Ronen, just to give you some idea where he's coming from.



Muslims ban Christmas and rape white women, in latest Latma satire

Are we really going down a road where sources like this are going to be tolerated on Urban and people have to be concerned about whether they'll be represented as 'liberal handwringers' and worse for doubting them?

BG..are you completely thick or what ? That site you linked to debunk this says that loon Gil Ronen is the source of this claim. Which is bollocks . Because there's a bloody video of the Norwegian news with the cops and one of the victims talking about it . Your blogger either hasn't seen the video or just ignores it .
As do you, and then off you go another fucking tangent . And demanding " no tolerance " ...which means fucking banning . You snide git .

Same old .

At least though you never dragged Oktoberfest into it this time. Which is a relief .

 

[bimble]

"Yep. It gets a bit lonely here sometimes, out on the windy ledge with CR as my apparent comrade in arms"

Don't get too near the edge
Some of us on here can believe what CRs saying,but it's at such odds with his perambulations on other issues that make it dificult for to people take him seriously on this particular issue.
Who knows, have the refugees renamed an Irish town 'Damascus'
?

What seems sad to me is that.. of everyone here Casually Red, whoever he may be, is the one person shouting loudest for the past month about the rights of women to walk about in the streets all unmolested with their clothes in tact etc.

I'm still a bit newish so don't fully understand why CR is a bad person, even though I have seen him post some very weird stuff (about how 'sex people' should be sent to the gulag and such).
But tbh I don't really care about what sort of a person CR may be, I'm more curious about what this thread would have looked like if there were more women writing here.