Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[ViolentPanda]

Are you suggesting that the problem at Cologne was.. not enough music?

Did you actually read what I wrote, or are you deliberately being obtuse? I said that the dynamic is different.

Or maybe not enough police. I'm not sure what you're saying.

That much is obvious.

NHC is so densely packed on the Monday that you're often physically squished between bodies when trying to move between sound systems, or have to go for a walk to find a place to pee. Maybe I'm just lucky that in all the years I've been going there I've never once witnessed those dense crowds being used as an opportunity for mass sexual assault. Which doesn't mean I've never had unwelcome hand on my arse whilst shuffling along between the chicken stalls, cos I have.

Now, interrogate the reasons for why you haven't witnessed it.
Overt police presence?
Confidence of attendees?
Because Brit males are so culturally-different to Middle Eastern males that it wouldn't occur to them to do so?
"Escape routes"(whether geographical or social) for potential victims?
Etcetera.
Etcetera.

Maybe it is the lack of music that was the problem in Cologne: I've been to parties in Jamaica where the sexual atmosphere is like nothing I've ever seen here, and the rum is flowing freely with hundreds of people in a small sweaty space, and never heard of or seen anything violent against women apart from the unpleasantness of men, singly, trying it on, sexy dancing-wise, and being rebuffed.

I'll say it again, because the social dynamic of the event is different. At mass social events (be they blues, or raves, or carnivals or gigs) people are there for a single particular reason. To celebrate in a particular way. That means that people exercise self-governance in a way particular to the type of celebration - this is the case with most defined social events - there are particular behaviours for each. You don't behave at a birthday party, the way you might at a hen or stag night. When people sense "out of place" behaviour, they generally self-police, unless the odds are against them.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I like that a lot.

Very helpful thing to be told as a 14-yr old history enthusiast. Made me question everything I thought I knew about history, and makes me always try to get a rounded picture of what happened, not just rely on "Great Men"-type narratives, or look at a single side of the coin.

Geoff Davison. Thank you!

 

[bimble]

Did you actually read what I wrote, or are you deliberately being obtuse? I said that the dynamic is different.

I did, I read what you wrote. I was asking you about how come the dynamic is different.

I'll say it again, because the social dynamic of the event is different. At mass social events (be they blues, or raves, or carnivals or gigs) people are there for a single particular reason. To celebrate in a particular way. That means that people exercise self-governance in a way particular to the type of celebration - this is the case with most defined social events - there are particular behaviours for each. You don't behave at a birthday party, the way you might at a hen or stag night. When people sense "out of place" behaviour, they generally self-police, unless the odds are against them.

Um. Ok. Yes of course, every social event has its own rules of normative behaviour, that's true.
So.. at the 'mass social event' in Cologne that night, what were the rules / norms that governed behaviour? Were people there 'to celebrate' NYE in a particular way outside the station? What rules were in play there, at that gathering ?

I find the whole attempt to draw comparisons between what happened outside that station and any sort of public celebration really disgusting to be honest.

 

[sihhi]

To answer CR's point, in general, no, the 1951 Convention on Asylum should not be infringed because of the criminal behaviour of some asylum seekers.

On this basis anything done by an asylum seeker can be categorised a serious crime and asylum seekers deported - stolen a plate of food, tried to sell a service without a license, pickpotted someone, smashed the cages of a holding centre. In the 1990s Kurdish asylum seekers were returned from Germany for apparently assisting drug gangs - charges + hearsay evidence is enough and once you go there's no appeal.

To apply gender and age qualifications is even worse - the only signal that can be given is abuse and torture the men over 18 - any kind of men you don't like so long as they're men they'll be trapped - abuse them as much as possible. Pretty soon because men are targetted for abuse in this way, some governments will declare women and children's claims for refuge are unwarranted. Not to mention breaking up families because they are stateless.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I did, I read what you wrote. I was asking you about how come the dynamic is different.



Um. Ok. Yes of course, every social event has its own rules of normative behaviour, that's true.
So.. at the 'mass social event' in Cologne that night, what were the rules / norms that governed behaviour? Were people there 'to celebrate' NYE in a particular way outside the station? What rules were in play there, at that gathering ?

That's exactly what I'm asking. Some posters have already decided that the "norms" present were those of migrant males.I think it was more complicated than that, and that the built environment (the cathedral square) made the space harder to escape from, in effect concentrating (and possibly magnifying) the abhorrent behaviour.

I find the whole attempt to draw comparisons between what happened outside that station and any sort of public celebration really disgusting to be honest.

Why?
We can only highlight differences accurately through seeking equivalences. NYE was supposed to be a public celebration.

 

[bimble]

Yep, I can't argue with any of that. Seeking equivalences is hard though, and blues festivals and birthday parties seem quite far off the mark. The closest thing I know of is, obviously, Tahrir Square, because the accounts tally so closely and I've never experienced or heard of anything like that despite having been to crowded & very drunken public events in various bits of the world over the years.

 

[hot air baboon]

Some posters have already decided that the "norms" present were those of migrant males.I think it was more complicated than that, and that the built environment (the cathedral square) made the space harder to escape from, in effect concentrating (and possibly magnifying) the abhorrent behaviour.

...er yes....and in Egypt it happened in Tahrir Square...and..iirc...the most seriosuly assaulted victim arising from that was isolated at the bottom of a locked-up subway entrance and subject to sustained attack.....rather looks like that's part of the S.O.P.....not sure you are in any way disproving or debunking the existence of a specific phenomenon tbh....

 

[ViolentPanda]

...er yes....and in Egypt it happened in Tahrir Square...and..iirc...the most seriosuly assaulted victim arising from that was isolated at the bottom of a locked-up subway entrance and subject to sustained attack.....rather looks like that's part of the S.O.P.....not sure you are in any way disproving or debunking the existence of a specific phenomenon tbh....

I'm not trying to.
I'm saying that the phenomenon may be more complex than "males (migrant or otherwise) plus women (western or otherwise) equals mass sexual harassment", which is the argument (involving migrant males and western women) that the media and some posters have spent the last 4 weeks punting.

 

[Anudder Oik]

I'm not trying to.
I'm saying that the phenomenon may be more complex than "males (migrant or otherwise) plus women (western or otherwise) equals mass sexual harassment", which is the argument (involving migrant males and western women) that the media and some posters have spent the last 4 weeks punting.

It's as complex as this video. I'm sure you can find one exactly the same from the fucking Oktoberfest.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's as complex as this video. I'm sure you can find one exactly the same from the fucking Oktoberfest.

You're implying it's all very simple. if it were, it'd be easy to explain and solve, even for governments indulging in the worst excesses of liberal political correctness.
That doesn't appear to be the case, does it?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Sure, the resemblance is easy to see, but are we going to buy into the far right version of *why* there's a resemblance?

Not without asking some pretty fucking hard questions.

 

[Casually Red]

If there was a march going past the end of our street that i was politically opposed to, I wouldn't personally stand outside trying to get their attention, but if i did, i wouldn't be surprised if I then got a lot of verbals off the oppo.Because that was bound to be the outcome, however much (presumably) well meaning internet folk can claim outrage afterwards about a "family being attacked by a mob in your own home" etc . I would be v grateful to the stewards who sensibly defused the situation though.

Maybe you think differently.

Most marchers don't attack people in the street , or indeed their own homes , for nothing more than not looking very happy to see a mob coming down their own street in an aggressive fashion . Fascists tend to do that type of thing . And Orangemen . But the vast majority of political demonstrators don't .
And it wasn't just verbals , they were chucking anything they could get their hands on with the guys young daughter standing there in tears . And the house was plainly surrounded . Only a bunch of cunts behave like that, most marchers don't . All they had to do was keep walking . It's like they went into that working class estate specifically looking for aggro . Or more accurately to give it out . And when you behave like that in someones estate it positively guarantees hostility . Local people will stand up and refuse to be intimidated . Theyll resent your presence . That's plainly what happened .

If it was a poc standing outside their own front door talking into a mobile being subjected to that along with his family by white demonstrators this conversation wouldn't be happening . A very different conversation would be happening and we all know it .This is a very dangerous type of hypocrisy . It's totally out of order to do that to anyone regardless of their skin pigmentation .

 

[xenon]

There is a lot of bullshit on this thread lately. And no I don't mean CR. All this okay sex offences happen a lot in crowds. Fuck off this was a specific new thing. New in terms of worthy of report hours. Oh we can all Google similar events yeah why not wankers.

 

[Casually Red]

Sure, the resemblance is easy to see, but are we going to buy into the far right version of *why* there's a resemblance?

Not without asking some pretty fucking hard questions.

This is totally disingenuous , again . The far right version is that Muslims and Islam are inherently evil . Nobody here is pushing that rubbish and well you know it . Nobody here is saying the far right explanation for events is in any manner correct . That's another snide smear .

More straw men . Like comparing it to fucking Oktoberfest .

 

[Casually Red]

Btw the only positive identification I've heard so far of the presence of Syrian refugees in cologne was from a young American woman who was molested . She said 3 of them went into the mob and rescued her, fought her attackers off and got her away to safety . After the fucking cops threw her back into the bastards when she went to them to report the first round of sexual assault she suffered .
There were numerous similar interventions to rescue women in tahrir . So plainly all Arab men don't do this shit , and there's strong opposition to it from other Arab men .

 

[rich!]

Btw the only positive identification I've heard so far of the presence of Syrian refugees in cologne was from a young American woman who was molested . She said 3 of them went into the mob and rescued her, fought her attackers off and got her away to safety . After the fucking cops threw her back into the bastards when she went to them to report the first round of sexual assault she suffered .
There were numerous similar interventions to rescue women in tahrir . So plainly all Arab men don't do this shit , and there's strong opposition to it from other Arab men .

So the Syrians rescued Americans from said mob and we're supposed to know what about the rest of the people in the mob??

 

[treelover]

Most marchers don't attack people in the street , or indeed their own homes , for nothing more than not looking very happy to see a mob coming down their own street in an aggressive fashion . Fascists tend to do that type of thing . And Orangemen . But the vast majority of political demonstrators don't .
And it wasn't just verbals , they were chucking anything they could get their hands on with the guys young daughter standing there in tears . And the house was plainly surrounded . Only a bunch of cunts behave like that, most marchers don't . All they had to do was keep walking . It's like they went into that working class estate specifically looking for aggro . Or more accurately to give it out . And when you behave like that in someones estate it positively guarantees hostility . Local people will stand up and refuse to be intimidated . Theyll resent your presence . That's plainly what happened .

If it was a poc standing outside their own front door talking into a mobile being subjected to that along with his family by white demonstrators this conversation wouldn't be happening . A very different conversation would be happening and we all know it .This is a very dangerous type of hypocrisy . It's totally out of order to do that to anyone regardless of their skin pigmentation .

Any march going into a council estate woukld have to be cautious how it operated, more so, on an issue like this, did they go through the estate enroute or purposely go through it, what was the rationale if the latter?

 

[Casually Red]

So the Syrians rescued Americans from said mob and we're supposed to know what about the rest of the people in the mob??

Plainly the Syrians who rescued her weren't part of the rape mob

 

[treelover]

After the fucking cops threw her back into the bastards when she went to them to report the first round of sexual assault she suffered .

WTF!, surely that isn't true?, if it is, she should sue the bollocks of the police.

 

[Casually Red]

Any march going into a council estate woukld have to be cautious how it operated, more so, on an issue like this, did they go through the estate enroute or purposely go through it, what was the rationale if the latter?

I've no idea but you can plainly see they were aggressive in attitude before they even got to that guys door . It was more like a football firm than a protest .
Wouldn't be surprised if it was a Clapton ultra who shouted " narzi scum " come to think of it .

 

[Casually Red]

WTF!, surely that isn't true?, if it is, she should sue the bollocks of the police.

According to the interview she gave shed broke free of the rape gangs, went up to police lines to report shed been sexually assaulted and they just turfed her back into the crowd shed gotten away from . Cops were clearing the square and didn't give a monkeys .

 

[rich!]

According to the interview she gave shed broke free of the rape gangs, went up to police lines to report shed been sexually assaulted and they just turfed her back into the crowd shed gotten away from . Cops were clearing the square and didn't give a monkeys .

The interview ?

 

[Casually Red]

The interview ?

Yes, the interview .

Victim of the Cologne sex attacks tells how she was rescued by refugees

 

[rich!]

Yes, the interview .

Victim of the Cologne sex attacks tells how she was rescued by refugees

thanks, clear reference for people doing good stuff in what was clearly a shitty place.

 

[Casually Red]

To answer CR's point, in general, no, the 1951 Convention on Asylum should not be infringed because of the criminal behaviour of some asylum seekers.

On this basis anything done by an asylum seeker can be categorised a serious crime and asylum seekers deported - stolen a plate of food, tried to sell a service without a license, pickpotted someone, smashed the cages of a holding centre. In the 1990s Kurdish asylum seekers were returned from Germany for apparently assisting drug gangs - charges + hearsay evidence is enough and once you go there's no appeal.

To apply gender and age qualifications is even worse - the only signal that can be given is abuse and torture the men over 18 - any kind of men you don't like so long as they're men they'll be trapped - abuse them as much as possible. Pretty soon because men are targetted for abuse in this way, some governments will declare women and children's claims for refuge are unwarranted. Not to mention breaking up families because they are stateless.

Does this act not also state an asylum seeker must stake a claim of asylum in the first safe country they set foot in ? Do we just cherry pick the bits we like and ignore the rest ?
If we want to stick to the letter of it then nobody gets out of turkey .
And again, people from Tunisia, morocco and Algeria aren't asylum seekers . They're economic migrants and nobody's even obliged to accept them .

 

[Bernie Gunther]

OK, so what's the hypothesis here? That NYE behaviour merely resembles the Egyptian accounts or that it's somehow patterned on it? If the latter, what would evidence for that look like?

I don't know. What do you think?

I think I can see several accounts being suggested, of how the NYE behaviour was actively patterned on practices originating in either Egypt or North Africa, rather than just coincidentally resembling it.

1) Gates of Vienna crowd - initially seemed to want to say 'this is just them being good Muslims'

2) Another big favourite seems to be - 'This is just how (all) men from those places treat (our) women'

3) This is part of a spectrum of specifically criminal behaviour, adopting street crime practices from a number of regions, including the Maghreb countries and that we now have gangs of criminals infesting all our major cities doing 'waltzing' and occasionally, as in NY/E, escalating to outright sex attacks while groping women and nicking their phones.

4) The Tahir Square attacks became the model for either a deliberate rape-gang organised by means yet to emerge, maybe via PlayStation network or similar, or for some less structured, self organising variant.

6) Tahir Square was security forces acting politically and so was this.

7) It was a false flag operation caused by agents of the Jooz to create racial tension, also lizards ...

8) The resemblance is just a coincidence.

I have a feeling I've missed some out, so please feel free to supply alternatives.

 

[bimble]

The photo in that article above (captioned people gather on the steps outside the station on 31st December) does make it look like the steps outside the station are brightly lit. Also like people were taking photos on their phones a lot.

I don't know if the people in this picture later went on to take part in the attacks but it is striking how homogenous it looks as a crowd, all very young men. That sort of situation surely helps with what psychologists call deindividuation where people lose their self awareness and become capable of things as part of a group which they would never do alone.

 

[LiamO]

Another video on that link made me laugh - can't say some of the commentary did the same

 

[BigMoaner]

Is you and your family being attacked by a mob in your own home and being called a Nazi for the privilege of that experience a proportionate response to anything that the bloke could potentially have said?

if millwall fans had done that to two randoms, no matter how mouthy they were, on the walk back to the station after a game, every man - left, right, and otherwise - would have called them the usual "scum" "animals", etc.

 

[newbie]

The other bit of what I keep wanting to ask is what the evidence says about the claimed 'uniqueness' or 'unprecedented-ness' of these attacks, beyond the obvious difference that there were a higher number of reported assaults in the NYE case than most of the comparable cases like Oktoberfest and in the media and political response to them.

I see variations on the 'uniqueness' claim a lot, for example that Finnish police chief's press release, but what exactly is that difference claimed to consist of in such cases, and what evidence supports such a claim?

I've just looked through all the google images for Oktoberfest, expecting to find crowdshots of beery men and a few waitresses. In fact crowds are very mixed. Perhaps women who go to that annual event know what to expect and understand/are prepared to accept the personal risks they're taking.

Similarly with women going out wandering on NYE in Cologne. They've done it before and they thought they knew what to expect, what personal risks they were running.