Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[Pickman's model]

Well many of them would be left in Algeria , morocco and Tunisia for starters I haven't actually heard yet of any Syrians being identified at this carry on . And you seem to be suggesting its somehow better for rapists to come over here and do it rather than back in turkey .
I'd suggest a belief that European women have a duty to share their burden of the middle eastern rape statistics would make someone a successful recruiter for whatever nutty fascist groups are going to benefit from all this. Which they surely will.
And you don't see the problem in that ?

i don't suggest for a moment that the way the influx of people has occurred has occurred in the best way it could have occurred. i am not suggesting anyone, male or female, should have been sexually assaulted or raped by anyone. what i am saying, and it shouldn't be a difficult point for you to understand even if you don't agree with it, is that declaring 'single men should not have been allowed in' would create problems in the short term for the countries in which they were forced to remain, and in the medium and long term for us here in europe. it would have been a grand recruiting tool for isis and other armed groups in the maghreb and middle east: they take our women and refuse our men. somewhat myopic imo.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No , it's because a political policy they promote, namely open borders, is now being shown to have some seriously negative social consequences . As many predicted it would , and which supporters of open borders angrily denounced as racist fantasy and hate mongering . So they now want to minimise both the gravity of those social consequences and the gravity of what occurred .

What "open borders" policy is this? Obviously you don't mean Shengen, because you don't appear to talking about EU migrants.

And this guy

Wow, a picture of a propagandist, and a picture of a fuckwit trying to ignore the obvious. I think you're experiencing some serious projection issues.

And now that we know these events were much worse and more widespread than when first ..belatedly...reported . And when we combine that with the undeniable fact the German and Swedish media have been deliberately not reporting them in this and other instances , for political reasons, we can draw some reasonable conclusions .

Firstly that many open borders supporters preferred we had no information this was happening at all . And would prefer we didnt know . That they are positively hostile to the subject even being discussed . And that therefore those mental, moral and verbal gymnastics , combined with apparent onset of Jesuitical demands for ever more degrees of robust iron clad " proof " ..which is notably absent when they start flinging around accusations of racism, fascism, nazism etc at anyone in the vicinity who doesn't agree with them..have the appearance of hypocrisy, denial , deliberate obfuscation, censorship and a disingenuous attempt to minimise the entire scandal . For their own self serving ends . Namely their own political and personal reputations . In short, it's due to massive, deliberate , cynical denial .

Great to see that you've constructed your rant around a "policy" that isn't a policy. Well done, that man!

 

[Pickman's model]

yawn.

imo you're edging it over markymarrk atm.

 

[ViolentPanda]

what would you prefer to have been done with them?

The Kenny Everett solution?

 

[Pickman's model]

The Kenny Everett solution?

at least then you'd know it was all done in the best possible taste.

 

[Casually Red]

So you keep saying.
Thing is, you appear to believe I'm trying to establish an equivalence between numbers. I'm not, because the dynamics are different - 200,000 people a day, spread over an entire city, can't be compared to 1000-2000 people in a closely-defined space for a maximum of 5 hours. Some of the dynamics of the behaviour are dictated by the setting they take place in.
Would what happened outside the hauptbahnhof have happened if it had taken place at Barbarossaplatz, rather than the cathedral square? Unlikely, because it'd be extremely difficult for so many people to get "bottlenecked" into Barbarossaplatz. You'd doubtless still get opportunist sexual assaults, but not in a similar prevalence as to the cathedral square.

The equivalence I'm looking at is an equivalence of behaviour, and how in most given situations where there are large groups of men, women will be sexually assaulted, regardless of the ethnicity, skin colour or culture of the men doing the assaulting. The commonality across every situation is the sex of the assaulter, and what motivated their behaviour.

In hamburg there were other groups prowling the streets for victims . Assaulting over a hundred . And it would have been much worse had the bouncers in the clubs not kept women inside for safety . German men weren't doing that . In Bielefeld hundreds were trying to break down the doors of a nightclub to get at the women inside . After ripping the clothes off women outside . Again it wasn't Germans . same with all the others . And not just in Germany .
There's a commonality to these gang attacks which transcends gender . The commonality is the attackers are male migrants from the middle east . European men aren't doing this . There are infinitely more European men in western Europe than migrants but they aren't prowling the streets in gangs doing this . If the commonality was gender this would be happening everywhere . It simply isn't . Gender is not the commonality in these cases .

 

[ViolentPanda]

Oh for fucks sake.

Is there an actual prize on offer for this stuff ? What on earth do you think you're actually accomplishing scraping that barrel ?

Actually I don't care, I don't want to know the logic behind it .

I'd have thought that really shit use of language would be of concern to anyone who doesn't want to see shit misrepresented. Why did he add "New Year's Eve"? In the context he was speaking in, it was extraneous. My point isn't that I believe that Finland has masses of group sexual assaults the rest of the year, it's that idiots can use the point I mentioned to imply that it happens. I mean,usually you're fairly conversant with how the conspira-nutter mind works!

 

[ViolentPanda]

The posh English voice at 1:10 shouting 'Nazi scum' at an ordinary person being attacked by a group outside their own house. Jesus.

I don't think Jesus had anything to do with it.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

He's not saying it's "normal".

He's saying:

Mass social disturbance including sexual assault by white males at Oktoberfest = not treated particularly seriously, even though rapes have been reported every year in the last ten (at the least)

Mass social disturbance including sexual assault by non-white males at NYE in Cologne and elsewhere - treated (as it should be!) severely.

Now frankly, I think that pointing that out,and asking "why?" is sensible and rational. Why is a white European male who rapes a woman, or participates in mass sexual assaults during a festival, less worthy of opprobrium from the media and the Establishment than a non-white, non-European male? Are the victims of the white males somehow worth less in the eyes of that Establishment, or is there perhaps an underlying set of values informing the seeming disparity in concern by the Establishment?



I'm not a fan of WSWS, but I'm not convinced he's trying to suggest anything of the sort. He appears to saying there's a disparity between official and Establishment reaction to Oktoberfest, and reaction from the same people regarding NYE.

That's a reasonable summary of what I'm questioning yes.

Isn't it interesting that people who seem to want to argue against asking such questions find it necessary, in many instances on this thread, to creatively edit and/or otherwise misrepresent those questions as assertions of a rather different kind?

 

[ViolentPanda]

A propagandist for who ?

For whomever you choose to source your information from this week.

 

[bimble]

Entirely different dynamic, though. I've never been to the NHC when it wasn't full of people burning off the beer (and rum) by dancing, and visitors (by which I mean mostly non-Londoners) tend to feel and look confident because of the policing - Londoners know differently, obviously.

Are you suggesting that the problem at Cologne was.. not enough music?
Or maybe not enough police. I'm not sure what you're saying.
NHC is so densely packed on the Monday that you're often physically squished between bodies when trying to move between sound systems, or have to go for a walk to find a place to pee. Maybe I'm just lucky that in all the years I've been going there I've never once witnessed those dense crowds being used as an opportunity for mass sexual assault. Which doesn't mean I've never had unwelcome hand on my arse whilst shuffling along between the chicken stalls, cos I have.

Maybe it is the lack of music that was the problem in Cologne: I've been to parties in Jamaica where the sexual atmosphere is like nothing I've ever seen here, and the rum is flowing freely with hundreds of people in a small sweaty space, and never heard of or seen anything violent against women apart from the unpleasantness of men, singly, trying it on, sexy dancing-wise, and being rebuffed.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

The other bit of what I keep wanting to ask is what the evidence says about the claimed 'uniqueness' or 'unprecedented-ness' of these attacks, beyond the obvious difference that there were a higher number of reported assaults in the NYE case than most of the comparable cases like Oktoberfest and in the media and political response to them.

I see variations on the 'uniqueness' claim a lot, for example that Finnish police chief's press release, but what exactly is that difference claimed to consist of in such cases, and what evidence supports such a claim?

 

[cantsin]

Is you and your family being attacked by a mob in your own home and being called a Nazi for the privilege of that experience a proportionate response to anything that the bloke could potentially have said?

If there was a march going past the end of our street that i was politically opposed to, I wouldn't personally stand outside trying to get their attention, but if i did, i wouldn't be surprised if I then got a lot of verbals off the oppo.Because that was bound to be the outcome, however much (presumably) well meaning internet folk can claim outrage afterwards about a "family being attacked by a mob in your own home" etc . I would be v grateful to the stewards who sensibly defused the situation though.

Maybe you think differently.

 

[J Ed]

If there was a march going past the end of our street that i was politically opposed to, I wouldn't personally stand outside trying to get their attention, but if i did, i wouldn't be surprised if I then got a lot of verbals off the oppo.Because that was bound to be the outcome, however much (presumably) well meaning internet folk can claim outrage afterwards about a "family being attacked by a mob in your own home" etc . I would be v grateful to the stewards who sensibly defused the situation though.

Maybe you think differently.

The EDL can randomly attack passersby when they march as far as you are concerned then.

Honestly my point is not even about whether what happened was right or not, clue: it wasn't, it was more about how it plays out to see seekers aided by what appears to be but might not exclusively be foreign leftists physically attack a family in their own home for the 'crime' of (and this is totally assumed) being opposed to their march/gathering/attacks.

 

[J Ed]

Narzi scum, off your street

 

[bimble]

The other bit of what I keep wanting to ask is what the evidence says about the claimed 'uniqueness' or 'unprecedented-ness' of these attacks, beyond the obvious difference that there were a higher number of reported assaults in the NYE case than most of the comparable cases like Oktoberfest and in the media and political response to them.

I see variations on the 'uniqueness' claim a lot, for example that Finnish police chief's press release, but what exactly is that difference claimed to consist of in such cases, and what evidence supports such a claim?

If you try googling 'mass sexual assault by large numbers of men at once, in a crowded public space' you won't get far, unfortunately (I really think it's very unhelpful that the word for this has to be imported) . Of course we do have the term 'gang rape', but that's something else. So, 'mass harassment' , in English, for some reason doesn't bring up anything but if you are curious about what makes Cologne NYE different from Oktoberfest try reading:
Taharrush gamea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

" Mass sexual assault by civilian groups or mobs have been documented in Egypt since the mid-2000s and in Europe since 2014 . Typically occurring under the protective cover of large gatherings, assailants encircle a woman, while outer rings of men may form to deter rescuers. The attackers may pretend to be rescuers, adding to the confusion. Women have reported digital penetration of the vagina and anus, having their clothes pulled or cut off, being pulled in different directions, having their hair pulled, and being beaten, bitten, raped and robbed.[6]:38–41[8] Women in Egypt have called it the "circle of hell."

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I find it really hard to take your question seriously but if you google for stats from Oktoberfest you'll see that yes of course there are sexual assaults reported every year. One is too many, of course, but from what I can see the numbers are (relatively) tiny - like 7, or 12, at an event with millions of people attending it, drinking millions of pints of beer.
But more importantly, I can find no reports at all of mass sexual assault - the Oktoberfest stats seem to be about one on one attacks, and mostly the perpetrators are known to the victims, as we know is usually the case with ordinary run of the mill sexual crimes.

OK this is better.

So the claim is that the unique character is that the attacks were carried out by groups and that this is not typically the case elsewhere? I agree that this is a common aspect of the victim accounts I've seen from NYE and that it's less clearly a feature of the Oktoberfest accounts.

Is that the only differentiating characteristic being claimed for NYE?

 

[bimble]

OK this is better. So the claim is that the unique character is that the attacks were carried out by groups and that this is not typically the case elsewhere? I agree that this is a common aspect of the victim accounts I've seen from NYE and that it's less clearly a feature of the Oktoberfest accounts.

Is that the only differentiating characteristic being claimed for NYE?

Far as I'm concerned, yes. See my post above about 'mass sexual assault' etc.

 

[Teenage Cthulhu]

Bimble - you are one of the best contributors to this thread.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

If you try googling 'mass sexual assault by large numbers of men at once, in a crowded public space' you won't get far, unfortunately (I really think it's very unhelpful that the word for this has to be imported) but still, 'mass harassment' doesn't bring up anything so if you are curious about what makes Cologne NYE different from Oktoberfest try reading:
Taharrush gamea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

" Mass sexual assault by civilian groups or mobs have been documented in Egypt since the mid-2000s and in Europe since 2014 . Typically occurring under the protective cover of large gatherings, assailants encircle a woman, while outer rings of men may form to deter rescuers. The attackers may pretend to be rescuers, adding to the confusion. Women have reported digital penetration of the vagina and anus, having their clothes pulled or cut off, being pulled in different directions, having their hair pulled, and being beaten, bitten, raped and robbed.[6]:38–41[8] Women in Egypt have called it the "circle of hell."

OK, so what's the hypothesis here? That NYE behaviour merely resembles the Egyptian accounts or that it's somehow patterned on it?

If the latter, what would evidence for that look like?

 

[bimble]

Bimble - you are one of the best contributors to this thread.

Wow! Thank you. Cheered up face:

 

[J Ed]

I personally would say that the main difference between the NYE attacks and the Oktoberfest attacks is quantitative rather than qualitative and it doesn't take a fine toothcomb to figure that out either.

 

[Teenage Cthulhu]

Keep on fighting the hand wringers.

 

[bimble]

OK, so what's the hypothesis here? That NYE behaviour merely resembles the Egyptian accounts or that it's somehow patterned on it?

If the latter, what would evidence for that look like?

I don't know. What do you think?

 

[J Ed]

I actually didn't pick up on the fact that there was an NPA flag at the start of the video. It really is as if the whole video was commissioned by the FN.

 

[J Ed]

How utterly astonishing that Calais voted overwhelmingly for the FN. Not.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So that's approximately 15 per night among 6 and a half million people over the space of a week . Meaning there's very very few, an absolutely minute percentage of people attending Oktoberfest who engage in these crimes compared to cologne .

A week? 16-18 nights.

 

[ViolentPanda]

In hamburg there were other groups prowling the streets for victims . Assaulting over a hundred . And it would have been much worse had the bouncers in the clubs not kept women inside for safety . German men weren't doing that . In Bielefeld hundreds were trying to break down the doors of a nightclub to get at the women inside . After ripping the clothes off women outside . Again it wasn't Germans . same with all the others . And not just in Germany .
There's a commonality to these gang attacks which transcends gender . The commonality is the attackers are male migrants from the middle east . European men aren't doing this . There are infinitely more European men in western Europe than migrants but they aren't prowling the streets in gangs doing this . If the commonality was gender this would be happening everywhere . It simply isn't . Gender is not the commonality in these cases .

Not "gender", sex.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That's a reasonable summary of what I'm questioning yes.

Isn't it interesting that people who seem to want to argue against asking such questions find it necessary, in many instances on this thread, to creatively edit and/or otherwise misrepresent those questions as assertions of a rather different kind?

Sometimes it's a misreading, sometimes it's done so that the misrepresenter can make themselves look good. Either way, it doesn't do anyone any favours.

The main problem (as I see it) is that rather than doing the whole *neutral observer thing, people feel more comfortable going where their preconceptions, or the most popular narrative, takes them. This doesn't make them racist, sexist or similar. It means they're lazy.

*My secondary school history teacher (a beardie old Red) taught us to do this: "stand outside of the narratives, and see what they're obscuring".

 

[bimble]

"stand outside of the narratives, and see what they're obscuring".

I like that a lot.