Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[Bernie Gunther]

Are you claiming that the assaults on NYE are qualitatively worse, or just that there were more of them?

The latter is a matter of fact, clearly there were more reported sexual assaults and rapes from Cologne than Oktoberfest.

 

[bluescreen]

'Nothing more different' happened in Paris, either, but for some reason Victoria Derbyshire found it newsworthy. 'I was stripped and assaulted in Paris attack', 14/01/2016, Victoria Derbyshire - BBC Two

 

[bimble]

'Nothing more different' happened in Paris, either, but for some reason Victoria Derbyshire found it newsworthy. 'I was stripped and assaulted in Paris attack', 14/01/2016, Victoria Derbyshire - BBC Two

Yeah, what's all the fuss about, that sort of stuff happens all the time surely, in the middle of a crowded street in Paris.

 

[hot air baboon]

I'm actually not sure if something qualitatively different happened over and above the sexual assaults that always occur at mass events involving groups of drunk blokes,

“This phenomenon is new in Finnish sexual crime history,” Ilkka Koskimaki, the deputy chief of police in Helsinki, told the Telegraph. ”We have never before had this kind of sexual harrassment happening at New Year’s Eve.”

 

[Casually Red]

In this case, the far right social media campaign had real stuff to work with though.

Sexual assaults that aren't a story when they happen at Octoberfest but are when they can be spun racially.

I don't think anyone here is claiming that the assaults were imaginary.

The hypothesis being put forward (at least by me) is that the assaults were largely real, both in the case of Cologne NYE and in all the other cases cited by the article, but that Cologne is getting reported quite differently for reasons that include but are not limited to a pre-existing far right social media campaign.

I'm actually not sure if something qualitatively different happened over and above the sexual assaults that always occur at mass events involving groups of drunk blokes, but which are usually not news (and certainly not something the far right ever gave a shit about before)

That's why I'm asking above if someone has anything that they feel is compelling evidence for a qualitative difference. Quantitively, it seems very likely this was a particularly unpleasant case from the number of victim reports and I'm not doubting that, but what the far right and much of the media seems to be claiming is that this is some special new form of sexual mass assault, one with clear racial characteristics. I'd like to see some compelling evidence to back the latter claim up from anyone who thinks its true.

You should get a prize for this . No really, you bloody should . You could actually get a proper job writing this kind of stuff . skills like this are going to be in high demand .

 

[bimble]

Are you claiming that the assaults on NYE are qualitatively worse, or just that there were more of them?

The latter is a matter of fact, clearly there were more reported sexual assaults and rapes from Cologne than Oktoberfest.

I find it really hard to take your question seriously but if you google for stats from Oktoberfest you'll see that yes of course there are sexual assaults reported every year. One is too many, of course, but from what I can see the numbers are (relatively) tiny - like 7, or 12, at an event with millions of people attending it, drinking millions of pints of beer.
But more importantly, I can find no reports at all of mass sexual assault - the Oktoberfest stats seem to be about one on one attacks, and mostly the perpetrators are known to the victims, as we know is usually the case with ordinary run of the mill sexual crimes.

 

[Pickman's model]

I find it really hard to take your question seriously but if you google for stats from Oktoberfest you'll see that yes of course there are sexual assaults, and even rapes reported every year. One is too many, of course, but from what I can see the numbers are (relatively) tiny - like 7, or 12, not 359.
But more importantly, I can find no reports at all of mass sexual assault - the Oktoberfest stats seem to be about one on one attacks, and mostly the perpetrators are known to the victims, as we know is usually the case with ordinary run of the mill sexual crimes.

i thought we went through this something like 70 pages ago

 

[Casually Red]

Are you claiming that the assaults on NYE are qualitatively worse, or just that there were more of them?

The latter is a matter of fact, clearly there were more reported sexual assaults and rapes from Cologne than Oktoberfest.

There were probably around 2000 people in the square in cologne , including the hundreds of victims. Around 6 and a half million people attend Oktoberfest . Your attempts to compare the 2 strike me as pretty risible, and shameless straw clutching . Almost all the migrant " revellers " participated to one degree or another in what occurred there . Nothing even remotely comparable occurs at Oktoberfest . If even a tenth of the Oktoberfest patrons did that we'd be looking at a genuine humanitarian catastrophe . Itd be like the fucking congo . The event would be banned .

 

[Casually Red]

I have been learned, thank you.

E2A: I've widely travelled across Europe just never been weapon shopping whilst there, hence my ignorance.

Speaking of weapons this could have got out of hand at the weekend , after what looks to be little more than a pissed off French family ..or a father and son..briefly stood in the way of a migrant demo outside their house on a Calais housing estate . They were surrounded and pelted with rubbish in their front garden when one of them ran inside and took out a deer rifle .



Luckily they were just blustering and throwing shapes, and that black steward dude did his best to calm it. As did the wife . But this stuff looks like its going to result in fatalities before too long . It's absolutely chaotic , increasingly violent and unpleasant and Europe is becoming seriously polarised .

 

[sihhi]

Almost all the migrant " revellers " participated to one degree or another in what occurred there.

There was no doubt a mass spree of sexual crime by non-Germans, but how is it known Almost all the migrant " revellers " participated

 

[Casually Red]

Oh yeah, a big up to whoever that English activist was shouting " nazi scum " at 1 20 in , at a family surrounded in their home by a mob chucking stuff at them . Absolute classic stuff .
I suppose the only reason he didn't end the chant with " ...off our streets " is that it was the guys own street and the chanter was from bloody England . Must have occurred to him half way through .
Didn't occur to him one of his stewards was doing his best to calm it though .

 

[bimble]

I'm actually not sure if something qualitatively different happened over and above the sexual assaults that always occur at mass events involving groups of drunk blokes

If this stuff was routine at crowded public drunken events, I reckon me along with 50% of the crowd would have stopped going to notting hill carnival a long time ago, because you know, it would not be fun.

 

[Casually Red]

There was no doubt a mass spree of sexual crime by non-Germans, but how is it known Almost all the migrant " revellers " participated

Because virtually the entire mob blocked the police , harassed the police and shielded the attackers .

 

[sihhi]

Because virtually the entire mob blocked the police , harassed the police and shielded the attackers .

but I thought there were only a tiny number of police
it seems just existing there in the dark and in the open for a non-naturalised German or asylum seeker becomes "shielding attackers"

More generally, there are many unanswered questions and a lot of assumptions. I am no dedicated fan of the WSWS but they do have a slightly bigger group there than here and do German translations, I think the shift to the type of thinking that says those asylum seekers guilty of a crime should be deported is a retrograde step.

Left party steps-up anti-immigrant agitation in Germany - World Socialist Web Site

Neues Deutschland, a national newspaper aligned with the Left Party, left no doubt that Wagenknecht’s statements correspond to the Left Party’s programme. The newspaper commented that it was “in no way betraying values to consider the deportation of criminals to be a legitimate means for the legal state, even if they have made asylum applications.”

 

[Casually Red]

Its not a good look for the Left, this equivocation, the far right/euro-nationalists will be taking it all in.

Its like they're deliberately trying to be as shit as possible . Trying to throw every weaselly, disingenuous , Jesuitical word spinning device going to make this go away . And when that fails they either drag out the far right as a boogeyman , to try and scare and shame people into accepting their bullshit , because the other brand of bullshits worse . And if that doesnt work then they denounce you as fascists as well . And that's after the debacle of establishment liberals covering the whole bloody thing up to begin with . Which makes my head spin when I see someone then come out with rubbish about the whole thing being whipped up by the media .

The far right don't even need to make stuff up about liberals and the left now. Just quote them word for word . Do they not even remotely realise people can call bullshit on them ? They think people can't see the dishonesty and equivocation from both them and the establishment ? And the complete loss of trust that's going to be the result ?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Still lots of equivocation all over the web.

Why do you think that is?

Is it because there are millions of people who are way too politically-correct?

Or is it because what we know of events - the quality of the information - leads people to equivocate?

 

[Casually Red]

I think the shift to the type of thinking that says those asylum seekers guilty of a crime should be deported is a retrograde step.

”

Why ? Please explain this to me ? Why is it retrograde to deport gangsters, thieves and rapists ?
I'm from a country of habitual immigrants . If an Irish person gets involved in criminal and anti social behaviour in either the US , Australia or wherever in the world, and gets deported not for one instant do I regard that as any form of racism . I think it's perfectly proper and the only regret I have is that some scumbags we got rid off are on their way back to plague us again .

What's left wing about your position ? What on earth has it got to do with socialism ? Why exactly is it retrograde ?

 

[ViolentPanda]

This column, if you have the German, worth reading (ps I don't)

Kriminalität: Unser Sexmob

was highlighted by this summary from the WSWS New Year’s Eve in Cologne, Germany: Growing inconsistencies - World Socialist Web Site

The Ministry of the Interior sees no “organized activity,” according to Jäger. There were “clear indications” that the “crimes were committed by different perpetrators or groups of perpetrators,” said Jäger. The minister explained that there were “heterogeneous motives” among the perpetrators: One wanted to commit a crime against property, another a sexual assault. Of the 30 suspects in Cologne, only six were accused of having committed a sex crime. Pickpocketing, receiving stolen goods, and robbery were the most common charges.

The report not only addresses Cologne, but also deals with three other cities in North Rhine-Westphalia. It states that, in connection with New Year’s Eve, there has now been a total of 982 criminal charges filed: 821 in Cologne (359 of them relating to sexual offences), 113 in Düsseldorf (69 due to sexual offences), 28 in Dortmund (including 4 sexual offences) and 20 in Bielefeld (5 sexual offences).

I've heard it said this past week that a snatch of a bag over the shoulder/chest by a man on a woman will be more readily accepted as sexual assault/groping if man is nonwhite and woman white, than if the man was white. Is that racist or sexist or accurate or what ? ??

I don't think it's sensible for anyone to make assumptions without knowing the context of the particular case. Maybe I'm too "liberal", but it seems to me that the route to justice is reached by doing the above.

Non-Europeans and people of lower class rank or appearance are assumed to be more likely to be sex-crazed (not just sexist) by the established reporting of affairs. Is that statement fair?

Earlier in the thread I mentioned the narrative originally deployed in West Germany about Turkish male gastarbeiter in the '60s and '70s (same in the UK with "Afro-Caribbean" immigrants, and even Irish immigrants), which did indeed rely on such tropes as "they're all sex-mad/if it moves they'll try to fuck it", and I think it's safe to say that this has re-emerged - originally mostly as a subtext, but the European "gutter press" is happily cranking it up as a full-blown "explanation". Papers like das Bild and our own Daily Express are happy to run with it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Its not a good look for the Left, this equivocation, the far right/euro-nationalists will be taking it all in.

Do fuck off with your monolithic "the left". In fact stick it up your arse, you mealy-mouthed lazy git.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't know if you've had a chance to read or watch the testimony of any of the women who had the courage to speak in public about what happened to them on NYE. Try listening to them and think about it: If what they went through was pretty much normal, to be expected at Oktoberfest or Carnival or whatever, do you think women would go to such events for fun? I don't think so. I think we'd probably stay home.

He's not saying it's "normal".

He's saying:

Mass social disturbance including sexual assault by white males at Oktoberfest = not treated particularly seriously, even though rapes have been reported every year in the last ten (at the least)

Mass social disturbance including sexual assault by non-white males at NYE in Cologne and elsewhere - treated (as it should be!) severely.

Now frankly, I think that pointing that out,and asking "why?" is sensible and rational. Why is a white European male who rapes a woman, or participates in mass sexual assaults during a festival, less worthy of opprobrium from the media and the Establishment than a non-white, non-European male? Are the victims of the white males somehow worth less in the eyes of that Establishment, or is there perhaps an underlying set of values informing the seeming disparity in concern by the Establishment?

Also, as for 'quantitative', re-read that stinker of an article from the socialist news, he's trying very hard to suggest that this was nothing out of the ordinary but look at the stats he's using from Oktoberfest, they are a joke.

I'm not a fan of WSWS, but I'm not convinced he's trying to suggest anything of the sort. He appears to saying there's a disparity between official and Establishment reaction to Oktoberfest, and reaction from the same people regarding NYE.

 

[Casually Red]

Why do you think that is?

Is it because there are millions of people who are way too politically-correct?

Or is it because what we know of events - the quality of the information - leads people to equivocate?

No , it's because a political policy they promote, namely open borders, is now being shown to have some seriously negative social consequences . As many predicted it would , and which supporters of open borders angrily denounced as racist fantasy and hate mongering . So they now want to minimise both the gravity of those social consequences and the gravity of what occurred .


Like this guy

And this guy

And now that we know these events were much worse and more widespread than when first ..belatedly...reported . And when we combine that with the undeniable fact the German and Swedish media have been deliberately not reporting them in this and other instances , for political reasons, we can draw some reasonable conclusions .

Firstly that many open borders supporters preferred we had no information this was happening at all . And would prefer we didnt know . That they are positively hostile to the subject even being discussed . And that therefore those mental, moral and verbal gymnastics , combined with apparent onset of Jesuitical demands for ever more degrees of robust iron clad " proof " ..which is notably absent when they start flinging around accusations of racism, fascism, nazism etc at anyone in the vicinity who doesn't agree with them..have the appearance of hypocrisy, denial , deliberate obfuscation, censorship and a disingenuous attempt to minimise the entire scandal . For their own self serving ends . Namely their own political and personal reputations . In short, it's due to massive, deliberate , cynical denial .

 

[ViolentPanda]

Are you claiming that the assaults on NYE are qualitatively worse, or just that there were more of them?

The latter is a matter of fact, clearly there were more reported sexual assaults and rapes from Cologne than Oktoberfest.

Were they "worse", though? If so, how much of that "worse" inheres in the heritage of the sex offender?

Back when Greebo and I were in Germany in 2011, there was a programme on the telly about Oktoberfest. A German version(-ish) of Panorama, where a reporter went "undercover" at a beer festival. When she signed up with one of the big catering organisations, they made it clear that female staff who brought complaints against festival-goers for sexual assaults would find their employment terminated. There was all sorts of other ropey shit going on too, especially around accommodation - not only for temp employees, but festival-goers too.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What's your veiw on the "holocaust" out of interest ..?.......just an early attempt at a butlins but somewhat slightly qualitatively misunderstood ?

Don't be a cunt.

 

[Pickman's model]

Don't be a cunt.

too late i fear

 

[Idris2002]

Re: Casually Red's post #3200 above. There is no policy of open borders at either the European Union level or at the level of any of the EU's member states. There is, therefore, no question of the "open borders policy" having negative social consequences. As such a policy does not exist, no consequences can flow from it.

 

[Casually Red]

He's not saying it's "normal".

He's saying:

Mass social disturbance including sexual assault by white males at Oktoberfest = not treated particularly seriously, even though rapes have been reported every year in the last ten (at the least)

Mass social disturbance including sexual assault by non-white males at NYE in Cologne and elsewhere - treated (as it should be!) severely.

Now frankly, I think that pointing that out,and asking "why?" is sensible and rational. Why is a white European male who rapes a woman, or participates in mass sexual assaults during a festival, less worthy of opprobrium from the media and the Establishment than a non-white, non-European male? Are the victims of the white males somehow worth less in the eyes of that Establishment, or is there perhaps an underlying set of values informing the seeming disparity in concern by the Establishment?



I'm not a fan of WSWS, but I'm not convinced he's trying to suggest anything of the sort. He appears to saying there's a disparity between official and Establishment reaction to Oktoberfest, and reaction from the same people regarding NYE.

Tell us about these mass sexual assaults at Oktoberfest then . He's comparing around half a dozen one on one rapes at a venue hosting 6 and a half million people from around the world, to hundreds of sexual assaults emanating from one group of around 1000 people. Right in front of the cops . He's full of shit and it's extremely cynical distraction tactics posing even more cynically as empathy . It's sickening .

The establishment media covered this all up for week . For over a year in sweden too . That attempted establishment cover up is part of this scandal too . but yet again it doesn't suit certain narratives to mention that . So dishonestly they spin the publics anger as an establishment ruse . When it's the other way about .

 

[Pickman's model]

Do fuck off with your monolithic "the left". In fact stick it up your arse, you mealy-mouthed lazy git.

ftfy

 

[ViolentPanda]

“This phenomenon is new in Finnish sexual crime history,” Ilkka Koskimaki, the deputy chief of police in Helsinki, told the Telegraph. ”We have never before had this kind of sexual harrassment happening at New Year’s Eve.”

So they've had it at other times of year, then? Seems a bit extraneous for him to emphasise "...at New Year's Eve".

 

[Casually Red]

Re: Casually Red's post #3200 above. There is no policy of open borders at either the European Union level or at the level of any of the EU's member states. There is, therefore, no question of the "open borders policy" having negative social consequences. As such a policy does not exist, no consequences can flow from it.

The decision was taken to let all the migrants in , resulting in an unprecedented influx of over a million people and counting .You may well quibble that's not an open borders policy and the consequences of it don't exist , but they do exist . And the border was open .

 

[Pickman's model]

The decision was taken to let all the migrants in , resulting in an unprecedented influx of over a million people and counting .You may well quibble that's not an open borders policy and the consequences of it don't exist , but they do exist . And the border was open .

what would you prefer to have been done with them?