Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[Pickman's model]

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[Cpatain Rbubish]

They aren't lax, that's normal for Europe . Britain is overly strict .

This was the situation in Austria months before the rampages across germany , shotguns , which don't require a license, virtually sold out . Women seemingly the biggest customers.

Austrians snapping up shotguns as thousands of Mideast refugees enter country

Shotguns have 'virtually sold out' in Austria amid migrant fears

I have been learned, thank you.

E2A: I've widely travelled across Europe just never been weapon shopping whilst there, hence my ignorance.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What a pointless wavering bit of writing that was. Most of the way through it tries quite hard to deny that 'culture' has anything to do with anything, reminding us that sexual harassment happens everywhere etc etc but then it ends with this:

" We need to discuss the roots of sexual violence and the reasons men feel that they have control over women's bodies, and address the structures of patriarchy and rape culture that have made sexual harassment on the streets, at school, at the office, and at home so common for so many millions of women. This means interrogating both what attitudes in the families of asylum-seekers make violence against women acceptable as well as what attitudes in the families of white Germans make violence against women acceptable."

Which contradicts the whole 'culture is irrelevant' argument and rounds things off nicely by saying nothing at all.

Culture may well be irrelevant, unless one closely defines what is meant by "culture". Too often the term is used as if it denotes a fixed attribute - meaningless when one acknowledges that there are no fixed points in cultures, and that they are infinitely fluid, and infinitely hybridising. Even "closed" cultures change - or die.
When the person's article mentions "rape culture", it's almost presented as an inescapable cultural force. I'm not sure that it's anything like that, but rather a set of behaviours that emerge in situations where a rational calculation between giving in to opportunism and the possible consequences of doing so, is made. Sex cases invariably claim compulsion, but it very rarely exists as a psychopathology.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't really understand the question. An act is criminal if it's against the law in the place & time when its done. So for instance in this country up until 1967 a gay man who had sex was a criminal and until 1991 a man who raped his wife was not. calling the perpetrators of NYE criminals is just not very helpful as far as I can see if we're trying to understand what happened and why.

"Criminal" is a label. It establishes the person labelled as someone who has committed, or is suspected of committing, an action that transgresses state law. Deployed in that way, it's a suitable label. Introducing a moral dimension by mentioning gay men or marital rape takes us away from that closely-defined meaning, to somewhere that demands the systematic weighing of terminology before use. Most people not only don't do that, but won'tdo that, this side of an academic paper.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I thought you were, when you said


I mean, if the men who did this were predominantly members of pickpocket gangs, which quite possibly they were, how does that help me understand the sexual assaults? Why didn't they just rob the women instead of ripping their clothes off.

Because they perceived an opportunity to do more than rob, and quite possibly because sexually-assaulting a victim sadly means that the victim is less likely to report the crime, given the stigma that's still present in even the most supposedly-enlightened societies.

 

[ViolentPanda]

*Sigh*

You never let accuracy get in the way of your pathetic point scoring do you? I used the word 'race' because the article, which I doubt you even read as it contained polysyllabic words, was an argument against this incident being used in a racist way. Would it make you happier if I said "race or culture".

Though why I should even try to make a miserable mumbling little miscreant as yourself happy, god only knows.

Thanks for the laugh your "polysyllabic words" comment gave me. It was hilarious in its inaccuracy.

 

[planetgeli]

Thanks for the laugh your "polysyllabic words" comment gave me. It was hilarious in its inaccuracy.

That's ok, I imagine you laugh at Michael McIntyre too. And that English obviously isn't your strong point. Whereas bigging up your mates on a website, Facebook stylee, is. Keep hitting that 'like' button.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That's ok, I imagine you laugh at Michael McIntyre too.

No, although it's a fair comparison between you and him. After all, he's a bit of a knobber too.

And that English obviously isn't your strong point. Whereas bigging up your mates on a website, Facebook stylee, is. Keep hitting that 'like' button.

I see you're an adherent of the "when you're in a hole, keeping digging" school. He's not my "mate", I just happen to know (from his appearance on "University Challenge" years ago) that he handles polysyllabic words quite handily.

Keep hitting that "wanker" button, loser.

 

[Casually Red]

Because they perceived an opportunity to do more than rob, and quite possibly because sexually-assaulting a victim sadly means that the victim is less likely to report the crime, given the stigma that's still present in even the most supposedly-enlightened societies.

Bollocks . Women were running screaming to the cops right in front of them . The cops were standing there looking at it all happen . They were imposing their control on those streets by weight of numbers . Punishing women for being who they were and being there , because they could . And they've gotten away with it .

 

[treelover]

Still lots of equivocation all over the web.

 

[bimble]

Apparently german police are now saying that similar things happened in some 12 different German cities on NYE (not at this scale) . But our boys are going over to lend a hand, so that's good:
"police investigating the Cologne attacks have enlisted the help of specialists from London. The so-called "super recognizers" from Scotland Yard will assist in analyzing video footage from New Year's Eve. Their ability to pick out faces in a crowd is considered superior to facial recognition software."
Report: Cologne-like New Year's Eve attacks in 12 German states | News | DW.COM | 23.01.2016

 

[Pickman's model]

Apparently german police are now saying that similar things happened in some 12 different German cities on NYE (not at this scale) . But our boys are going over to lend a hand, so that's good:
"police investigating the Cologne attacks have enlisted the help of specialists from London. The so-called "super recognizers" from Scotland Yard will assist in analyzing video footage from New Year's Eve. Their ability to pick out faces in a crowd is considered superior to facial recognition software."
Report: Cologne-like New Year's Eve attacks in 12 German states | News | DW.COM | 23.01.2016

that's becsuse germans have great difficulty with faces unlike the english.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

that's becsuse germans have great difficulty with faces unlike the english.

Young Adolf was shit at painting them, apparently. That's why he invaded Poland.

 

[DotCommunist]

The so-called "super recognizers" from Scotland Yard

will these be the same boys who did the sterling job of identifying Menezes who turned out not to be brown or a terrorist but was shot right in the head anyway?

 

[sihhi]

This column, if you have the German, worth reading (ps I don't)

Kriminalität: Unser Sexmob

was highlighted by this summary from the WSWS New Year’s Eve in Cologne, Germany: Growing inconsistencies - World Socialist Web Site

The Ministry of the Interior sees no “organized activity,” according to Jäger. There were “clear indications” that the “crimes were committed by different perpetrators or groups of perpetrators,” said Jäger. The minister explained that there were “heterogeneous motives” among the perpetrators: One wanted to commit a crime against property, another a sexual assault. Of the 30 suspects in Cologne, only six were accused of having committed a sex crime. Pickpocketing, receiving stolen goods, and robbery were the most common charges.

The report not only addresses Cologne, but also deals with three other cities in North Rhine-Westphalia. It states that, in connection with New Year’s Eve, there has now been a total of 982 criminal charges filed: 821 in Cologne (359 of them relating to sexual offences), 113 in Düsseldorf (69 due to sexual offences), 28 in Dortmund (including 4 sexual offences) and 20 in Bielefeld (5 sexual offences).

I've heard it said this past week that a snatch of a bag over the shoulder/chest by a man on a woman will be more readily accepted as sexual assault/groping if man is nonwhite and woman white, than if the man was white. Is that racist or sexist or accurate or what ? ??

Non-Europeans and people of lower class rank or appearance are assumed to be more likely to be sex-crazed (not just sexist) by the established reporting of affairs. Is that statement fair?

 

[DotCommunist]

Non-Europeans and people of lower class rank or appearance are assumed to be more likely to be sex-crazed (not just sexist) by the established reporting of affairs. Is that statement fair?

I'd hope not, but some of the reportage and rhetoric has seemed unnaturally keen to whip up such ideas of the rapey mob of foriegners. Like animals who can't control it etc, you know the racist line on that front ennit. Boils down to that horrible 'their culture' thing and 'they don't know any better'. Bollocks imo.

 

[bimble]

New Year’s Eve in Cologne, Germany: Growing inconsistencies - World Socialist Web Site

it actually says "nothing different, or nothing more, happened at the central train station in Cologne than what has taken place at similar large-scale gatherings on other occasions such as Carnival".
Wow. All those lying racist women eh.

 

[treelover]

Its not a good look for the Left, this equivocation, the far right/euro-nationalists will be taking it all in.

 

[DotCommunist]

it actually says "nothing different, or nothing more, happened at the central train station in Cologne than what has taken place at similar large-scale gatherings on other occasions such as Carnival".
Wow. All those lying racist women eh.

at what point does the text call the women liars and racists?

 

[bimble]

at what point does the text call the women liars and racists?

Read it again will you? It is saying - and I'll quote it again because it's that special - that "nothing different, or nothing more" happened in Cologne on NYE from what happens at any large gathering where there's a bit too much beer going around.
The author doesn't directly address the fact that 359* women say they were sexually assaulted outside the train station, doesn't directly call them all racist liars, but his whole whole shameful article is an attempt to suggest that this was all perfectly normal really and that the women who filed complaints were basically overreacting to the usual sort of nuisance, unwanted hugs from strangers, a pat on the bum etc.

In aid of this argument he relies on a bunch of completely irrelevant numbers from the Octoberfest 2014, telling us that, that year, "Police initiated 55 criminal proceedings for offences involving bodily injury, property damage, pickpocketing, robbery and narcotics violations". So.. How does that help ? Mr. Rippert must have been a bit annoyed to not even be able to find a single claim of mass sexual assault but never mind, ignore that.

His whole shitty article is an attempt to 'show' that the women's harrowing testimony of what happened to them should be ignored as much as possible because actually all of this discussion about NYE is just a conspiracy on the part of.. imperialism and capital, or something :"They serve only as a pretext to justify an unparalleled build-up of police and intelligence agencies domestically and new combat missions in North Africa and the Middle East."
What a load of utter bollocks. Shame on him and on 'the International Committee of the Fourth International'.

* edit :latest figures say it's over 520 sexual assaults reported so far

 

[DotCommunist]

Read it again will you? It is saying - and I'll quote it again because it's that special - that "nothing different, or nothing more" happened in Cologne on NYE from what happens at any large gathering where there's a bit too much beer going around.

and that calls women racist liars precisely where? Oh it doesn't. Why do this?

 

[bimble]

 

[Bernie Gunther]

This column, if you have the German, worth reading <snip>

From the WSWS link, following a bunch of crime stats from comparable events which did not receive a racial spin.

Judged by these numbers, nothing different, or nothing more, happened at the central train station in Cologne than what has taken place at similar large-scale gatherings on other occasions such as Carnival or Oktoberfest.

Of course, one key difference in this case is a four month far-right social media campaign centred on 'refugee rape gangs', easily detectable using Google's custom date range filter to exclude NYE and after. A campaign which clearly contains many of the elements which subsequently came to frame the mainstream media discussion.

What evidence would be required to show that there was something qualitatively different going on in the NYE case?

Or are we claiming that this was a particularly nasty example of the sort of thing that always happens, albeit with less media attention, at comparable events? (Which it pretty clearly was irrespective of the answer to the previous question)

 

[bimble]

everyone including me would probably be a lot happier if i got it together to put this thread on ignore. Will try.

 

[Pickman's model]

and that calls women racist liars precisely where? Oh it doesn't. Why do this?

i believe bimble suggesting the same thing happens at the cologne carnival but underreported or reported in a different way, she isn't suggesting the women are racist liars. not sure where you get that from tbh. e2a, reread thread, as you were at self

 

[irf520]

"nothing different, or nothing more" happened in Cologne on NYE from what happens at any large gathering where there's a bit too much beer going around.

Presumably that means there's always mass sexual assaults at any large gathering with drunk men. But on NYE the reaction was greater due to "unconscious bias" against non-white people.
So a large proportion of men are gropey/rapey (especially after they've had a few drinks) and a large proportion of women are racist.

Or maybe they imagined it all and the idea was put in their heads by a far right social media campaign?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

In this case, the far right social media campaign had real stuff to work with though.

Sexual assaults that aren't a story when they happen at Octoberfest but are when they can be spun racially.

I don't think anyone here is claiming that the assaults were imaginary.

The hypothesis being put forward (at least by me) is that the assaults were largely real, both in the case of Cologne NYE and in all the other cases cited by the article, but that Cologne is getting reported quite differently for reasons that include but are not limited to a pre-existing far right social media campaign.

I'm actually not sure if something qualitatively different happened over and above the sexual assaults that always occur at mass events involving groups of drunk blokes, but which are usually not news (and certainly not something the far right ever gave a shit about before)

That's why I'm asking above if someone has anything that they feel is compelling evidence for a qualitative difference. Quantitively, it seems very likely this was a particularly unpleasant case from the number of victim reports and I'm not doubting that, but what the far right and much of the media seems to be claiming is that this is some special new form of sexual mass assault, one with clear racial characteristics. I'd like to see some compelling evidence to back the latter claim up from anyone who thinks its true.

 

[Tankus]

What's your veiw on the "holocaust" out of interest ..?.......just an early attempt at a butlins but somewhat slightly qualitatively misunderstood ?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

What's your veiw on the "holocaust" out of interest ..?.......just an early attempt at a butlins but somewhat slightly qualitatively misunderstood ?

Funny, but I'd be more impressed by facts and logic.

 

[bimble]

I'm actually not sure if something qualitatively different happened over and above the sexual assaults that always occur at mass events involving groups of drunk blokes, but which are usually not news (and certainly not something the far right ever gave a shit about before)

That's why I'm asking above if someone has anything that they feel is compelling evidence for a qualitative difference (Or a quantitative one for that matter, although it seems very likely this was a particularly unpleasant case from the number of victim reports)

I don't know if you've had a chance to read or watch the testimony of any of the women who had the courage to speak in public about what happened to them on NYE. Try listening to them and think about it: If what they went through was pretty much normal, to be expected at Oktoberfest or Carnival or whatever, do you think women would go to such events for fun? I don't think so. I think we'd probably stay home.

Also, as for 'quantitative', re-read that stinker of an article from the socialist news, he's trying very hard to suggest that this was nothing out of the ordinary but look at the stats he's using from Oktoberfest, they are a joke.