Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[bimble]

Neither Taharrush Gamea Nor Sexism Are Arab 'Cultural Practices'

What a pointless wavering bit of writing that was. Most of the way through it tries quite hard to deny that 'culture' has anything to do with anything, reminding us that sexual harassment happens everywhere etc etc but then it ends with this:

" We need to discuss the roots of sexual violence and the reasons men feel that they have control over women's bodies, and address the structures of patriarchy and rape culture that have made sexual harassment on the streets, at school, at the office, and at home so common for so many millions of women. This means interrogating both what attitudes in the families of asylum-seekers make violence against women acceptable as well as what attitudes in the families of white Germans make violence against women acceptable."

Which contradicts the whole 'culture is irrelevant' argument and rounds things off nicely by saying nothing at all.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

My impression from yesterday's discussion though was that you were saying 'criminality is irrelevant'.

Did I understand correctly?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

See e.g. this ...

I'm suggesting that it's a total copout to just call them "criminal' as if that explains anything because the rules about what is criminal are constantly evolving and very place and time specific. I mean, to use 'criminal' as a byword for morally not ok is .. a bit dodgy to say the least and explains nothing about what happened to women on NYE far as I can see.

Why would your argument that 'it's criminal' has no explanatory force (if that's indeed what you're saying in the quote) not also apply to saying 'it's cultural' ?

 

[bimble]

Why would your argument that 'it's criminal' has no explanatory force (if that's indeed what you're saying in the quote) not also apply to saying 'it's cultural' ?

I don't really understand the question. An act is criminal if it's against the law in the place & time when its done. So for instance in this country up until 1967 a gay man who had sex was a criminal and until 1991 a man who raped his wife was not. calling the perpetrators of NYE criminals is just not very helpful as far as I can see if we're trying to understand what happened and why.

 

[planetgeli]

What a pointless wavering bit of writing that was. Most of the way through it tries quite hard to deny that 'culture' has anything to do with anything, reminding us that sexual harassment happens everywhere etc etc but then it ends with this:

" We need to discuss the roots of sexual violence and the reasons men feel that they have control over women's bodies, and address the structures of patriarchy and rape culture that have made sexual harassment on the streets, at school, at the office, and at home so common for so many millions of women. This means interrogating both what attitudes in the families of asylum-seekers make violence against women acceptable as well as what attitudes in the families of white Germans make violence against women acceptable."

Which contradicts the whole 'culture is irrelevant' argument and rounds things off nicely by saying nothing at all.

I don't think you understand the bit you've quoted at all if that's what you think it means. He's saying sexual harassment is universal to all culture and we need to examine ourselves just as much as we need to examine what some perceive as being a unique 'new' problem imported from North Africa. He quite clearly blames patriarchy, not race.

 

[bimble]

I don't think you understand the bit you've quoted at all if that's what you think it means. He's saying sexual harassment is universal to all culture and we need to examine ourselves just as much as we need to examine what some perceive as being a unique 'new' problem imported from North Africa. He quite clearly blames patriarchy, not race.

Again with the 'race'. Who mentioned race? I'm just saying that 'patriarchy' is not the same everywhere, not by a long way. To say that I have just as bad a problem , or the same sorts of problems, as say a woman living in Delhi is just silly, that's all.

This is pretty good I think:
"Even if there turn out to be distinctive patterns in the sorts of crime reported, condemnation shorn of understanding will not get us far."
The Guardian view on the refugee crisis: dial down the rhetoric, and have the difficult debate | Editorial

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't think you understand the bit you've quoted at all if that's what you think it means. He's saying sexual harassment is universal to all culture and we need to examine ourselves just as much as we need to examine what some perceive as being a unique 'new' problem imported from North Africa. He quite clearly blames patriarchy, not race.

yeh bimble obviously too stupid to understand

 

[bimble]

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't think you understand the bit you've quoted at all if that's what you think it means. He's saying sexual harassment is universal to all culture and we need to examine ourselves just as much as we need to examine what some perceive as being a unique 'new' problem imported from North Africa. He quite clearly blames patriarchy, not race.

so you think 'race' equivalent to 'culture'. close the door on your way out.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

If we're actually trying to "understand what happened and why", there are several reasons why it might be important to find out, for example, whether the attackers were part of existing street crime gangs rather than coming together for some other reason yet to be explained.

I posed a whole lot of questions in a previous post about this sort of stuff, but here are a couple of examples.

One question extremely pertinent to 'what happened and why?' is the question of how the attackers came to assemble in exactly that place on NYE and a closely related question is why did similar things on a smaller scale (allegedly) happen elsewhere? Also, how was it organised etc?

If it turns out (and note that I'm not claiming this as definitely proven) that the attackers were predominantly members of pickpocket gangs, plausible answers to some of those questions suggest themselves quite readily in a way that they do not suggest themselves if it turns out the attackers were all say Japanese tourists or something.

In the unlikely case that it was Japanese tourists, we'd still be wondering what the organisational mechanism was and whose idea it was and why, whereas reasonable looking hypotheses about motives and organisational opportunities are already largely in place for gangs of pickpockets.

 

[bimble]

If it turns out that the attackers were predominantly members of pickpocket gangs, then plausible answers to some of those questions suggest themselves quite readily in a way that they do not suggest themselves if it turns out the attackers were all say Japanese tourists or something.

From the very early reports coming out of Cologne police station it did sound like several of the perpetrators were 'known to the police'. Also we've been told that the area outside the station has been a prime spot for a certain type of mugging / pickpocketing for some time. So yes definitely sounds like there was a connection with some sort of semi-organised street crime going on that night.

For me though, trying to somehow elide the robberies with the sexual assaults doesn't work. I mean yes it's true lots of people got robbed that night as well as sexually assaulted but that does not help me understand why hundreds of women were violently groped had their clothes ripped off them etc.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Who is "trying to elide" that though?

 

[bimble]

Who is "trying to elide" that though?

I thought you were, when you said

If it turns out (and note that I'm not claiming this as definitely proven) that the attackers were predominantly members of pickpocket gangs, plausible answers to some of those questions suggest themselves quite readily

I mean, if the men who did this were predominantly members of pickpocket gangs, which quite possibly they were, how does that help me understand the sexual assaults? Why didn't they just rob the women instead of ripping their clothes off.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Which questions did I say it was an answer for in the bit you edited out?

I was really quite specific.

 

[Anudder Oik]

From the very early reports coming out of Cologne police station it did sound like several of the perpetrators were 'known to the police'. Also we've been told that the area outside the station has been a prime spot for a certain type of mugging / pickpocketing for some time. So yes definitely sounds like there was a connection with some sort of semi-organised street crime going on that night.

For me though, trying to somehow elide the robberies with the sexual assaults doesn't work. I mean yes it's true lots of people got robbed that night as well as sexually assaulted but that does not help me understand why hundreds of women were violently groped had their clothes ripped off them etc.

There was a time in the late 90's when 500 homeless adolescents from Tangier, survived by pickpocketing in Barcelona. They were at it for a few years, robbing countless thousands of tourists. AFAIK, there weren't any reports of mass gang gropings or sexual assaults. They did however, use waltzing tactics, ie, putting their arm around someone as they walked along, saying some footballers name and then trying to trip them up via a fawned tackle. I spoke to some, they told me they wouldn't do what they were doing back in Tangier.

 

[bimble]

Which questions did I say it was an answer for in the bit you edited out?

ok sorry, you were just saying it might explain why they met there and how they were organised right? You weren't suggesting it would help explain why the sexual dimension of what happened.

 

[planetgeli]

so you think 'race' equivalent to 'culture'. close the door on your way out.

*Sigh*

You never let accuracy get in the way of your pathetic point scoring do you? I used the word 'race' because the article, which I doubt you even read as it contained polysyllabic words, was an argument against this incident being used in a racist way. Would it make you happier if I said "race or culture".

Though why I should even try to make a miserable mumbling little miscreant as yourself happy, god only knows.

 

[Pickman's model]

From the very early reports coming out of Cologne police station it did sound like several of the perpetrators were 'known to the police'. Also we've been told that the area outside the station has been a prime spot for a certain type of mugging / pickpocketing for some time. So yes definitely sounds like there was a connection with some sort of semi-organised street crime going on that night.

For me though, trying to somehow elide the robberies with the sexual assaults doesn't work. I mean yes it's true lots of people got robbed that night as well as sexually assaulted but that does not help me understand why hundreds of women were violently groped had their clothes ripped off them etc.

what have we learnt in this country about the first things the police say?

 

[planetgeli]

yeh bimble obviously too stupid to understand

Oh dear. You're still smarting about me calling you out on patronising Bimble aren't you. You sad little fuck.

 

[bimble]

what have we learnt in this country about the first things the police say?

Well there is that too. It's just that the police have said nothing at all apparently, since they said that stuff. Oh yeah, apart from that they've managed to charge one single person with sexual assault.

 

[bimble]

Oh dear. You're still smarting about me calling you out on patronising Bimble aren't you. You sad little fuck.

oi. leave me out of this.

 

[Pickman's model]

*Sigh*

You never let accuracy get in the way of your pathetic point scoring do you? I used the word 'race' because the article, which I doubt you even read as it contained polysyllabic words, was an argument against this incident being used in a racist way. Would it make you happier if I said "race or culture".

Though why I should even try to make a miserable mumbling little miscreant as yourself happy, god only knows.

i read the article. but your post, which was to bimble and not me, tellung her how stupid she is, equates race and culture. maybe that was unintentional. but it's nonetheless telling.

 

[bimble]

I the article, which I doubt you even read as it contained polysyllabic words, was an argument against this incident being used in a racist way. Would it make you happier if I said "race or culture".

Thing is that the whole debate, since this story broke days after NYE, has been about exactly that - the fear of it playing into the hands of racists and far right ant-immigration groups etc etc. So that piece of writing you posted added nothing at all to the conversation far as I can tell, was just a really crap example of what people have been saying for weeks.

 

[Pickman's model]

Oh dear. You're still smarting about me calling you out on patronising Bimble aren't you. You sad little fuck.

no, i'm not. i can patronise someone and still object to other people calling them stupid. you thick as pigshit lying cunt.

 

[Pickman's model]

Thing is that the whole problem , the whole debate, since this story broke days after NYE, has been about exactly that - the fear of it playing into the hands of racists and far right ant-immigration groups etc etc. So that piece of writing you posted added nothing at all to the conversation far as I can tell, was a really crap example of what people have been saying for weeks.

as i pointed out above.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

ok sorry, you were just saying it might explain why they met there and how they were organised right? You weren't suggesting it would help explain why the sexual dimension of what happened.

Getting to be a bit of a habit ...

Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

 

[bimble]

Getting to be a bit of a habit ...

Yep, I am sorry. I've found this thread really emotional and probably got unreasonably cross with people all the way through it.
But don't forget
Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

 

[Bernie Gunther]

What 'sort of explanation'?

The one your creative edits are producing or one that I'm actually offering?

 

[bimble]

What 'sort of explanation'?

The one your creative edits are producing or one that I'm actually offering?

That's just it.. what are you "actually offering"? What sort of direction would you suggest people look in for an understanding of what happened?
I still don't have an idea where you're coming from apart from you think that Cologne NYE is probably connected with criminal networks of some kind and that it plays into the hands of the far right media & political machine. Both those things seem kind of obvious though.

That observer article posted earlier suggests a couple of pointers to the sort of explanations that appeal to me when it says:

" it is more fruitful to dig into research about the conditions which encourage young men to behave appallingly in all sorts of cultures and contexts. The research, for example, which nails a connection between risky and brutish male behaviour and the gender imbalance wrought by selective abortion in India and China, an imbalance less extreme than that in many of the migrant camps. And the studies, too, which elucidate the connection, traditionally familiar from the football terraces, between violence and the crowd.'

 

[Casually Red]

On a more serious note, I saw a bit of telly news news where they were interviewing a shop owner who had almost sold out of gas guns, pepper spray and stun guns. I had no idea they were so lax about these sort of items in Germany.

They aren't lax, that's normal for Europe . Britain is overly strict .

This was the situation in Austria months before the rampages across germany , shotguns , which don't require a license, virtually sold out . Women seemingly the biggest customers.

Austrians snapping up shotguns as thousands of Mideast refugees enter country

Shotguns have 'virtually sold out' in Austria amid migrant fears