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Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

If you remove obstacles to migration, people will travel en masse to wherever they think their standard of living will be highest. This will only stop when it is no longer to most people's advantage to migrate, which in turn will be when the average standard of living is roughly the same everywhere. I'll leave it to your imagination to decide whether that equilibrium level would be higher or lower than what we have at the moment.

Sure, "open borders" would be a massive pull factor, but "people will travel en masse" is incredibly simplistic, given that in most cases there needs to be push factors in play too - in Syria's case, civil war. Where there aren't over-arching push factors, migrants tend toward being young male "economic migrants", and while there's a lot of media engagement about the constitution of the current migrant wave in (and heading for) Germany being mostly young and male, most actual "on the scene" reportage makes clear that there are plenty of family groups too.
 
Sure, "open borders" would be a massive pull factor, but "people will travel en masse" is incredibly simplistic, given that in most cases there needs to be push factors in play too - in Syria's case, civil war. Where there aren't over-arching push factors, migrants tend toward being young male "economic migrants", and while there's a lot of media engagement about the constitution of the current migrant wave in (and heading for) Germany being mostly young and male, most actual "on the scene" reportage makes clear that there are plenty of family groups too.

Maybe I shouldn't have said 'en masse', but 'in large numbers'. Look at how many came from Eastern European countries after they joined the EU. The point still remains that in general, in the absence of any barriers, people will move to where they can get a better standard of living. The difference in standard of living in different places is the motive force behind a lot of the migration.
 
Don't forget though, there are all kinds of complex dynamics behind migration from e.g. North Africa.

Last I looked there were significant trans-Sahara flows of refugees from places like Congo and Somalia *into* North Africa (where in general they do not have a nice time).

Such flows are driven to a large degree by the dangers of collapsed states. From states that capital has found it convenient to cause to collapse and which it is perfectly content to leave in the hands of bloody handed gangsters as long as the loot keeps flowing.
 
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I was talking from memory above and about a decade out of date in terms of info.

Here's some recent NGO data on the scale of conflict-induced displacement:
By the end of 2014, nearly 60 million people worldwide were displaced either within or beyond their country’s borders, according to the most recent publicly available United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) estimates. Of these, nearly 13.9 million were newly displaced, a number roughly equivalent to the current population of the Netherlands. Syrians have quickly become the world’s largest displaced population; as of July 2015, at least 7.6 million were internally displaced, and by December nearly 4.4 million had been registered as refugees outside Syria.

Other crises less frequently in the headlines have also generated substantial suffering and displacement, and in some places, internally displaced persons (IDPs) share space and resources with refugees from neighboring countries as conflicts and war erode national borders. As South Sudan marked its fourth independence anniversary in 2015, more than 770,000 people had fled to neighboring countries and at least 1.6 million were internally displaced—in addition to the continuing inflow of Sudanese refugees, which totaled more than 265,000 as of August. The number of refugees fleeing the Central African Republic has nearly doubled since December 2013, reaching more than 450,000 as of mid-November 2015. In addition, nearly 38,000 people were newly displaced in the capital Bangui as religious and communal violence intensified in September. And in Yemen, more than 5,600 people have been killed and 2.3 million displaced (up from 545,700 in May), with another 170,000 fleeing the country since sectarian conflict broke out in March. At the same time, the country is host to 264,600 refugees, the vast majority Somali, and in the first ten months of 2015, 70,000 refugees, asylum seekers, and migrants had crossed the Red Sea to Yemen.

While few places in the world remain untouched by growing displacement (four of UNHCR’s five regional offices reported a substantial growth in refugee populations in 2014, and the conflicts driving displacement have continued into 2015), the effects have clearly been felt more heavily in certain places. Most individuals who are eventually forced to seek refuge across borders—approximately 14.4 million people in 2014—did so in a neighboring country. Ten countries, none in Europe and nearly all in the developing world, host close to 60 percent of the world’s refugees. Ninety percent of Syrian refugees are hosted in neighboring countries, and in Lebanon, Syrians now comprise almost one-quarter of the total population. The consequences of mass displacement have been most profound for the countries and regions that are, in many ways, least equipped to take on the responsibility of providing protection.

Even more of those forced from their communities and homes choose, at least initially, to remain within the boundaries of their countries. Ongoing fighting in eastern Ukraine in 2015, for example, forced more than 2 million people to flee, with more than 1.5 million internally displaced as of October. And Iraq hosts more than 270,000 refugees, most in the Kurdish regional governorate, who live alongside at least 3.2 million Iraqis displaced as of mid-November, driven from their homes largely by ISIS violence. As strain on these communities grows or violence proliferates, internal displacement can become a precursor to refugee flows.
Top 10 of 2015 – Issue #2: Displacement Reaches Record High as Wars Continue and New Conflicts Emerge

That's ignoring the natural and climate change induced disasters too ...

... and the less immediately violent economic ones (like fucking over the Greek economy by causing a bank run to make a point about capital having a veto over democracy)
 
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Such flows are driven to a large degree by the dangers of collapsed states. From states that capital has found it convenient to cause to collapse and which it is perfectly content to leave in the hands of bloody handed gangsters as long as the loot keeps flowing.

The upshot of failed states is mass migration, something else capital has found convenient. Although polite society would prefer the implications were not discussed in front of the children.
 
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Porn has got more violent in recent years, I've noticed from the few times I've looked at it recently. The old vanilla stuff is fading away. Christ knows what high speed internet and instant access to millions of pornographic image is doing to our minds, our expectations of sex, sexuality, etc. Yes some people ARE daft enough to think its how reality is or should be. Teenagers viewing this stuff. I hope it has little affect but I not sure if that really is the case.

I think porn has effect on anyone watching regularly, but particularly young forming minds its almost detrimental. I went through heaven and hell to watch porn as a youngun. Now its at the click of a button and much more extreme.
 
The upshot of failed states is mass migration, something else capital has found convenient. Although polite society would prefer the implications were not discussed in front of the children.

Not quite sure what you mean by 'polite society'

My impression is that there's discussion of at least some of the implications all over the place, but that a lot of that discussion is founded on what I would see (per this post on the previous page) as fairly simple-minded conceptions of who 'us' and 'them' are these days ...

There are obviously some areas that 'official' public discourse is going to avoid though, like the inability of states to do anything terribly constructive about a situation that's mostly quite convenient for capital, other than trying to manage the public response to the various negative externalities.
 
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On a more serious note, I saw a bit of telly news news where they were interviewing a shop owner who had almost sold out of gas guns, pepper spray and stun guns. I had no idea they were so lax about these sort of items in Germany.
 
Refugees claim ISIS militants living among them in Germany

Refugees claim ISIS militants living among them in Germany

“He stopped me many times at the checkpoint near our village; we were even able to find him on Facebook, I go to the web page and there's this guy again,” the refugee said.

“I was very scared that this terrorist is in a democratic state like Germany just living here,” the refugee told RT, adding that he does not understand how those who kept whole families hostage now have Syrian refugee status in Germany.

The Assyrian community now feels very insecure as “this was not the first case” a former IS member had been recognized, the man said. He added that some people are even considering leaving Germany, but do not know where to run to.
 
Reports from yesterday saying official police figures show 359 sexual assaults on NYE in Cologne, alone, out of a total of 821 complaints (robberies, etc). 659 of the victims were women.

So far, one arrest for sexual assault and a few others for robbery.
 
I think porn has effect on anyone watching regularly, but particularly young forming minds its almost detrimental. I went through heaven and hell to watch porn as a youngun. Now its at the click of a button and much more extreme.

Agee. I feel really lucky that I got to grow up back in the days when it was just a tattered old copy of some sticky magazine that the boys passed around at school.
But the relevance of porn to this story is, maybe, slightly different to the general 'harmful effects on young minds' concern. I mean, imagine being a young man for whom all of these things are true:
- In your home village / town / society there is a complete taboo on sex before marriage (apart from maybe with prostitutes)
- Women who have sex before / outside marriage - even if they are raped - are a source of serious shame to their family, they loose their value completely, are a disgrace.
- You have been watching porn online on your phone back home with your mates for years, all of it (or 99.9% of it) showing western women performers.
- You do not have a clue about how sex and romance works in a 'permissive' society, where women can and do choose to have sex before marriage without becoming a disgrace, a non-person.

Do I have to write that none of these things are about Islam? I probably do have to write that but it should be obvious. I got interested in this years ago after conversations with young men in India, who has smartphones and honestly had no clue why I'd care either way about who I had sex with seeing as where I come from people just shag strangers all day long etc.
 
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- You have been watching porn online on your phone back home with your mates for years, all of it (or 99.9% of it) showing western women performers.
- You do not have a clue about how sex and romance works in a 'permissive' society, where women can and do choose to have sex before marriage without becoming a disgrace, a non-person.

Do I have to write that none of these things are about Islam? I probably do have to write that but it should be obvious. I got interested in this years ago after conversations with young men in India, who has smartphones and honestly had no clue why I'd care either way about who I had sex with seeing as where I come from people just shag strangers all day long etc.

But their 'phones or computers were probably capable of showing stuff that is not porn. If they choose only to watch porn, that's a choice, but they must surely be aware that what you see on films is not real.
 
But their 'phones or computers were probably capable of showing stuff that is not porn. If they choose only to watch porn, that's a choice, but they must surely be aware that what you see on films is not real.
I think that's what I'm trying to say, that no, people watching it on their phones in a village in a remote bit of South India for instance, have no context at all within which to understand what they are watching: If your 'real world' environment tells you that only prostitutes have sex outside marriage etc, then you're going to view the western actors in what you're watching in a way that is considerably more confusing than someone growing up in a (relatively) sexually permissive society.
Also, of course boys with 3G phones watch porn, wherever they are. Porn is always the first thing that new technology is used for right? see: Photography. :)
 
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But, once having got a clever phone and having watched porn nonstop to the point of exhaustion, wouldn't they occasionally watch something else? And if you are going to country X or Y, or already there, surely you'd be looking for some more realistic information about day to day life and how to get by.

The Cologne guys seem to have made sure to do their thing with safety in numbers rather than genuinely thinking that women would willing to succumb to their charming advances.
 
And if you are going to country X or Y, or already there, surely you'd be looking for some more realistic information about day to day life and how to get by.
I think / hope that that sort of realistic information you're talking about would really help people, like the imaginary young man above. It can't just be expected though, like as soon as you arrive in your new home you should just 'get' how a sexually permissive society works, and be all clued up about consent and respect for women, even women who are neither virgins nor married, women who go out unaccompanied and laugh and drink in public etc.
 
But when in doubt, one can observe how that natives behave and get some good clues that way, whether it's waiting until the correct time to cross the road, or managing not to attack women.
 
But when in doubt, one can observe how that natives behave and get some good clues that way, whether it's waiting until the correct time to cross the road, or managing not to attack women.
So, in your opinion, this was nothing to do with 'culture', or ignorance that could be helped by education, it was just a very large group of .. criminals?
 
No, they must have realised that they were now living in a different culture. I find it hard to believe that the Cologne people genuinely thought that what they were doing was perfectly fine.
 
No, they must have realised that they were now living in a different culture. I find it hard to believe that the Cologne people genuinely thought that what they were doing was perfectly fine.
Not suggesting they thought it was perfectly fine, not at all. Just still trying to explore the why did it happens, what sort of thinking could have been behind it, instead of just saying 'they are criminals it is irrelevant where they were from' .
 
The "we have seen porn that suggests that all Western women are always up for it" argument surely falls apart a bit when the women are clearly not overjoyed about being groped and attacked, which would be a fairly big clue that it's the wrong thing to do.
I know. I'm not saying they thought the women were enjoying having their clothes ripped off, screaming and bruised. I'm saying that maybe what happened in Cologne and elsewhere has something to do with a rage against and utter disrespect for incomprehensible 'sexually liberated' women.
 
No, they must have realised that they were now living in a different culture. I find it hard to believe that the Cologne people genuinely thought that what they were doing was perfectly fine.

That's why I was wondering how the Cologne attackers justified their behaviour to themselves and each other in that long post on the previous page.

It's also why I think Gamergate might be an instructive paired example (in Chomsky's sense) for the Cologne attacks.

Right now we know a lot more about how the attackers in the Gamergate case self-justified their actions and about the ways in which they self-organised to terrorise women in a (virtual) public space with sexual harassment, (data) theft and threats of violence. It will be interesting to compare that with any equivalent evidence that emerges for Cologne.
 
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I think there's a much simpler explanation that is to do with criminal subcultures. Just as mainstream culture differs between different regions/nations, criminal subculture differs between regions/nations. We in Europe are used to seeing criminals act in a certain way; there is a distinctive British criminal subculture, and likewise for Germany, Brasil, USA and Outer-Mongolia.

With the arrival of millions of people from outside Europe in such a small amount of time, it is inevitable that criminals will be among that population. Criminals are of course the vast minority, as is the case in every society, but it can't be denied that a criminal subculture has arrived alongside recent migrants, and that this subculture is qualitatively different to our own.

A question that the left has failed utterly to answer is how we confront a new style of criminality. It is of no use saying "oh it's criminality and nothing to do with culture" because it is to do with culture - a criminal subculture. Taharrush gamea is not carried out by European criminals, it is carried out by criminals who have arrived from other parts of the world. If you wan't to tackle it and defeat it, that fact has to be acknowledged. If we don't, the narrative will (and I fear already has been) lost to the far-right.
 
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I went to Cologne for work once, if forced to go back I think I sexually assault and stab myself. I did not like it one bit.

For a city, it's tiny. Like Brighton without Hove tiny. Also, up until the mid-nineties, still way too many politicians in Cologne, working down the road in Bonn.
 
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