Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[coley]

Nah this thread is all about casually red, you know, what sort of a person he really is, whether his outrage is genuine or strategic blah blah.

Unfortunately that seems to be true.

 

[butchersapron]

Migrant communities think more like non-migrants after just one generation, study suggests

A common fear among the general public in many Western countries is that immigrants have ways of thinking or social values that are fundamentally different to them, and that these differences prevent them from integrating into Western societies.

Our new research, published in PLOS ONE, suggests such fears are misplaced.

We found that British Bangladeshi migrants in East London shifted towards the thinking styles of the wider non-migrant population in just a single generation. Our study also provides insights into how and why people from different parts of the world think and reason differently.

Link to full report.

 

[bimble]

Link to full report.

""Western, Educated, Industrialised, Rich, Democratic (WEIRD) countries" . .

 

[YouSir]

Migrant communities think more like non-migrants after just one generation, study suggests



Link to full report.

Always wonder why, given the day to day evidence people see of that, it's not used as a bigger stick to beat the right with. Their basic argument is that our culture/norms are so weak that they'll never be adopted or absorbed by new arrivals. Or if they are it'll only be because they're forced into it. Odd for nationalists given the British history of nationalists assuming that our culture was so great that the entire would would embrace it given half a chance.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Plainly it's a bit of a liberty to assume the average person in the street would be , I dunno,... a tad miffed that young women were being assaulted and raped by organised gangs of criminals numbering up to a thousand .
And that the media and cops were deliberately covering it up . But plainly I'm manufacturing outrage were none exists, it's all me , and the average person on the street is taking a leaf out of the book of wankers on here and fretting that to be livid when the subjects raised inevitably means a return to the third Reich, and so instead emphasise the "nuances " of organised gang rape right across Europe . And agree its perfectly tickety boo for the authorities and media to cover it up .

And the only reason I haven't heard an actual real person talking such utter shit is they're the silent majority, and they communicate by manner of nod and wink. Tapping nose etc .
And wankers like you are correct after all and everyone agrees with you . Hence the currently robust state of the left . Such is the level of agreement with your stance by the average person in the street .

What's that line from Shakespeare that's apposite for your posts? Oh yeah.."all sound and fury, signifying nothing". I don't claim to speak for everyone because I know my opinion doesn't represent the views of everyone. You though, you actually think your reactionary bollocks is representative - that's how little credit you give "the average person in the street".
Now jog on.

 

[Idris2002]

Migrant communities think more like non-migrants after just one generation, study suggests



Link to full report.

Many thanks for this. But this was also clear from the fact that birth rates in immigrant communities, even those with origins in parts of the world with high birth rates (including Muslim countries) were and are very rapidly converging on the mainstream European pattern of low birth rates.

 

[bimble]

One thing that really doesn't help with the process that report describes is faith schools, insular education for whatever community, and those are growing fast.

eg)A London Jewish school that does not teach English has been ordered to close

 

[ViolentPanda]

No one commenting on the events in Heesch(video above), pretty alarming, by the look of it many locals not just the usual far right.

Do a bit of reading about the rural Dutch, and look where Wilders gets his votes from. Implying that "locals" are being swayed is daft. Many of them are already on the way there.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That video you posted is very scary. Doesn't look like the usual skinhead crowd at all, or at least it looks like they have lots of new friends, middle aged women bringing their kids along even.

Of course it is. In rural Holland this has been building for decades. As the urban areas become more "multicultural" and tolerant, the rural areas have become more monocultural and intolerant - Ian Buruma's "Murder in Amsterdam" has an interesting take on the dynamic between the urban and rural populations, but is a bit long in the tooth (late noughties) - so "middle-aged women" (or men) isn't exactly shocking, at least not to me.

 

[BigMoaner]

I think unless you want one world, international socialism, then i find the open border argument just a bit stupid.

i am always going to listen to someone more, the way the world is structured at hte moment, who says "lets limit the amount of people we let in, lets have X amount of people" instead of "let anyone who wants to come here come here."

i know second/third gen migrants who feel the same.

i have no ax to grind about other countries limiting my opportunity to work/live there. i'd like to live in the states for a good while, but i realise its not possible. i don't see this as anti English or racist. i wouldn't expect them to open their borders "to everyone."

there is a massive difference between saying all people who are not white are subhuman, than saying i'd prefer migration slowed down/controlled. i'd like it slowed down in south london a bit. the place is teeming. in my once suburban area there's people crammed into houses. buses are crowded. it would be nice for the communities, all communities, here to settle, for a sense that everyone is settling, instead of a constant flux of people pouring into london all the time, and inevitable pouring out. is that racist? how many people enter this country a year as migrants - 200k? what's the population of say leicester? 300k? so that's how fast the country and urban areas are growing? is that necessarily good?

 

[BigMoaner]

actually it was 300k last year. so that's a town the size of Leicester every year. at what point does it stop accelerating like that? genuine question.

 

[BigMoaner]

One thing that really doesn't help with the process that report describes is faith schools, insular education for whatever community, and those are growing fast.

whilst many working class people cannot afford to move area to avoid certain schools, you watch how middle class lefties leave in their droves from areas that have lots of ESL in their schools when their kids reach school age. not so multicultural-loving then.

 

[Pickman's model]

whilst many working class people cannot afford to move area to avoid certain schools, you watch how middle class lefties leave in their droves from areas that have lots of ESL in their schools when their kids reach school age. not so multicultural-loving then.

just mc lefties? the hardier mc tories stay?

 

[BigMoaner]

the further we get away from calling either all migrants scum and all people who want less migration than more as racist, then the easier the debate will get with more rational responses for everyone.

 

[BigMoaner]

just mc lefties? the hardier mc tories stay?

of course not. they are not even in them areas in the first place!

 

[BigMoaner]

of course not. they are not even in them areas in the first place!

i have had a bee in my bonnet over this since i've had a child, the stuff i have heard from even the most right on parents. at least you expect it from a tory. my kid will go to a school with about 50% ESL.

 

[Pickman's model]

of course not. they are not even in them areas in the first place!

of course they aren't

 

[irf520]

I think unless you want one world, international socialism, then i find the open border argument just a bit stupid.

i am always going to listen to someone more, the way the world is structured at hte moment, who says "lets limit the amount of people we let in, lets have X amount of people" instead of "let anyone who wants to come here come here."

i know second/third gen migrants who feel the same.

i have no ax to grind about other countries limiting my opportunity to work/live there. i'd like to live in the states for a good while, but i realise its not possible. i don't see this as anti English or racist. i wouldn't expect them to open their borders "to everyone."

there is a massive difference between saying all people who are not white are subhuman, than saying i'd prefer migration slowed down/controlled. i'd like it slowed down in south london a bit. the place is teeming. in my once suburban area there's people crammed into houses. buses are crowded. it would be nice for the communities, all communities, here to settle, for a sense that everyone is settling, instead of a constant flux of people pouring into london all the time, and inevitable pouring out. is that racist? how many people enter this country a year as migrants - 200k? what's the population of say leicester? 300k? so that's how fast the country and urban areas are growing? is that necessarily good?

If you remove obstacles to migration, people will travel en masse to wherever they think their standard of living will be highest. This will only stop when it is no longer to most people's advantage to migrate, which in turn will be when the average standard of living is roughly the same everywhere. I'll leave it to your imagination to decide whether that equilibrium level would be higher or lower than what we have at the moment.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I can't help thinking that there's a bit more going on in terms of the cultural flows and disjunctions in this event.

Some questions we don't have clear and evidential answers to at present regarding the attacks themselves.

• What was the actual composition of the attackers, in terms of the questions below?
• Illegal immigrants? Refugees? Gang members? Locals? North Africans? Arabs? East Europeans?
• If they weren't native Germans, how long had they been there? Doing what? How did they come to be there?
• Where did they come from (if not German)? What were their class origins? Education and qualifications? Age range?
• How are they currently situated within German society (class etc)? Bourgeois? Workers? Lumpen?
• What are their relevant primary loyalties? Criminal? In debt to people traffickers? Family? Refugee centre peer group?
• How would they have described their intention to each other beforehand? Rape? Robbery? Laughs? Revenge? "Show them xyz"?
• How would they characterise their victims to each other?
• How would they justify their actions to each other?
• Where would the cultural elements of that justification originate? Maghreb? Gamergate? Balkans? Islam? Enlightenment? Music industry?
• To what degree was this planned and organised? To what degree spontaneous and self-organised?
• What were the mechanisms of organisation? Social media? PlayStation network? Word of mouth?
• Were their activities patterned on something else they've participated in before? Robbery tactics? "Normal" sex pest harassment?
• Was it patterned on stuff they'd read about or watched online or done in games? Tahir square? Violent porn?

One could ask similar questions about the police, political and media responses and about the social and political context of these events (e.g. the far right media campaign I was on about earlier), but these'll do for now.

As far as I can see, many people are simply making up the answers that suit them in the absence of any clear evidence on most of the above points. It'll be interesting if any emerges. You'd hope that someone somewhere close to the investigation was at least answering some of the above.

Edited a bit to refine the questions.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

The cultural echoes between this and gamergate in particular do seem to me to be worth exploring. Obviously there are huge differences, but also very evidently patterns in common. Denial of public spaces though networked mass sexual harassment and violent threats etc.

Edits to try to clarify some not quite-baked thoughts

 

[bimble]

As far as I can see, many people are simply making up the answers that suit them in the absence of any clear evidence on most of the above points. It'll be interesting if any emerges. You'd hope that someone somewhere close to the investigation was at least answering some of the above.

It's too late for "wait until the facts are in", I really don't think we'll be getting 'clear evidence' of the kind you're hoping for from 'someone somewhere close to the investigation':
All we've got so far nearly 3 weeks on is one single person charged with a sexual assault and 8 charged with street robbery. The rest is speculation.
Isn't that just what people do though in the absence of answers - try to fill in the blanks in whatever way fits best with their existing ideas about the world, or else try to ignore it, the new thing, because it doesn't fit anywhere in their filing system..

I'm glad to see that wikipedia has decided not to delete the entry for taharrush gamea (the deletion flag has gone so now its just about neutrality)

 

[Bernie Gunther]

It's too late for "wait until the facts are in", I really don't think we'll be getting 'clear evidence' of the kind you're hoping for from 'someone somewhere close to the investigation':
All we've got so far nearly 3 weeks on is one single person charged with a sexual assault and 8 charged with street robbery. The rest is speculation.
Isn't that just what people do though in the absence of answers - try to fill in the blanks in whatever way fits best with their existing ideas about the world, or else try to ignore it, the new thing, because it doesn't fit anywhere in their filing system..
<snip>

Well yes, you're probably right that we won't get evidence of a lot of that stuff and that people will fill in the blanks.

My point was mostly that these are blanks, rather than facts.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I guess also I was trying to get at something a bit more complex going on than the simple-minded purity of some of the versions of "us" and "them" that are being imagined around here and in the public discourse about this.

 

[BigMoaner]

Porn has got more violent in recent years, I've noticed from the few times I've looked at it recently. The old vanilla stuff is fading away. Christ knows what high speed internet and instant access to millions of pornographic image is doing to our minds, our expectations of sex, sexuality, etc. Yes some people ARE daft enough to think its how reality is or should be. Teenagers viewing this stuff. I hope it has little affect but I not sure if that really is the case.

 

[bimble]

If you remove obstacles to migration, people will travel en masse to wherever they think their standard of living will be highest. This will only stop when it is no longer to most people's advantage to migrate, which in turn will be when the average standard of living is roughly the same everywhere. I'll leave it to your imagination to decide whether that equilibrium level would be higher or lower than what we have at the moment.

Your logic must be flawed here surely, because.. who wants to hear what you've just said? not me. I know! You're wrong because growth. Growth of everyones economy will keep happening always, somehow, so there's more to go round for everyone and we can all have cars and microwaves happily ever after.

 

[Pickman's model]

If you remove obstacles to migration, people will travel en masse to wherever they think their standard of living will be highest. This will only stop when it is no longer to most people's advantage to migrate, which in turn will be when the average standard of living is roughly the same everywhere. I'll leave it to your imagination to decide whether that equilibrium level would be higher or lower than what we have at the moment.

yeh cos obstacles to migration have really worked to prevent this in recent years

 

[Pickman's model]

Your logic must be flawed here surely, because.. who wants to hear what you've just said? not me. I know! You're wrong because growth. Growth of everyones economy will keep happening always, somehow, so there's more to go round for everyone and we can all have cars and microwaves happily ever after.

economies will not always grow. they do not always grow - need i point you to the recent recessions? to the 1930s depression? to the early 1980s?

 

[bimble]

economies will not always grow. they do not always grow - need i point you to the recent recessions? to the 1930s depression? to the early 1980s?

But.. i was just trying to make irf520 's pessimistic post be wrong.

 

[Pickman's model]

But.. i was just trying to make irf520 's pessimistic post be wrong.

i think it's bollocks anyway without your help or mine

 

[Anudder Oik]

One thing that really doesn't help with the process that report describes is faith schools, insular education for whatever community, and those are growing fast.

eg)A London Jewish school that does not teach English has been ordered to close

Another thing which can off balance the report is the perception of the importance of the number of volunteers going to join ISIL from Britain.