How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?

[where to]

The Independent has confirmed it has a copy of the Jillings report. The one insurers insisted be pulped.

 

[albionism]

He did to the BIJ/Newsnight people and they proceeded on that basis.

But he did not name names publicly...

 

[butchersapron]

But he did not name names publicly...

If i talk to people making a TV program then i know that i'm publicly naming him whether the program goes ahead and names him or not. You can name people publicly without having a tv program as well.

Part of the BBC/newsnight shoddyness was then letting him front the apology for their lack of basic journalism.

 

[Treacle Toes]

The Independent has confirmed it has a copy of the Jillings report. The one insurers insisted be pulped.

The Jillings report: How the truth about North Wales child abuse scandal was suppressed

Council insurers demanded that the first full investigation into the care home scandal was pulped. Roger Dobson – who has one of the few remaining copies – details an astonishing cover-up

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ild-abuse-scandal-was-suppressed-8303903.html

 

[albionism]

Do you think he had never "googled" a pic of the person he thought to be his abuser for
some 15-20 years? He had only seen a pic that day? and then decided "nah, it ain't him, i got
it wrong"? It's all very iffy indeed

 

[where to]

I agree. Something doesnt stack up right with all this. It's possible he is just all over the shop, and the journalists wanted to believe a little too much. But even then.

 

[Woollyredhat]

Is there any information on Mark Humphries? He is mentioned in a report in The Independent as being one of the North Wales abuse victims. He killed himself aged 31. He apparently made serious claims to a freelance journalist about the abuse. There's not much I can find on him, so if anyone could post a link which is detailed on this, can't seem to find anything as of yet. Link to independent article mentioning Mark: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...on-waits-for-justice-30-years-on-8303901.html

 

[DJ Squelch]

Another witness in the Anglesea libel trial.

The BBC made a drama in 2000(?) based on his story called "Care".

 

[ViolentPanda]

please consider the difference between 'a significant component' and 'the entire cause of the problem'

I have been, it's you that hasn't unless it suits you.

Yes.
[source - north wales freemasons website]
the number of lodges in North wales grew by 50% between 1958-90 vs no new lodges since 1991

Alongside what other factors? Here's a few - transition from an industrial to a post-industrial economy; demographic growth; improvement of transport infrastructure.
So, quite possible to attribute a growth in lodge numbers to more reasons than merely a paedophile conspiracy.

you see that Lord Kenyan in the quote above, listed as being the Provincial Grand Master of North Wales?

Kenyon.

I also see that Freemasonry as an issue was being addressed 30 years ago.

that's the same Lord Kenyan who's son Thomas Kenyan who died of Aids in 1993 and is alleged to have been the son of a Lord referred to in the Nick Davies article in the first post of this thread. It's also alleged in this article and this book that he was also a member of the North Wales Police Authority, which I think included through the 70s and 80s.

So the Provincial Grand Master's son is implicated in involvement in all this, yet it's apparently not something worth discussing on this thread.

No-one has said it isn't worth discussing. Amazing how often you see stuff that isn't there. What people have said is Freemasonry isn't worth fixating on. It's one vector among many.

That article also alleges that Sir Walter Stansfield, the former Deputy Chief Constable of Denbigh Police Force (prior to it being amalgamated into north wales police), and then Chief Constable of Derbyshire police was an active mason... along with a fair few other allegations that are hard to substantiate, but they claim to have evidence of.

Evidence is useless unless it is produced.

 

[Corax]

Do you think he had never "googled" a pic of the person he thought to be his abuser for
some 15-20 years? He had only seen a pic that day? and then decided "nah, it ain't him, i got
it wrong"? It's all very iffy indeed

Maybe. But do we know how internet savvy he is? I know plenty of people that have never google image searched anything. Just because we're all relatively heavy web users, it's easy to forget that not everyone is.

 

[where to]

He's on Twitter.

 

[Corax]

He's on Twitter.

He is now, but only since this all blew up.

 

[Corax]

A man in his 70s from Cambridgeshire has been arrested by officers investigating sexual abuse claims againstJimmy Savileand others.
He is the third man to be detained under Operation Yewtree, the criminal inquiry being conducted by the Met police and the NSPCC.
The Met said the man "falls under the strand of the investigation we have termed 'others'". He was arrested at 7.15am on suspicion of sexual offences and has been taken into police custody locally, Scotland Yard said.
It comes nine days after the arrest and bail of the entertainer Freddie Starr, and two weeks after Gary Glitter was questioned. Glitter, 68, whose real name is Paul Gadd, was arrested at home and questioned at a London police station before being released on bail until mid-December.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/nov/11/jimmy-savile-inquiry-man-arrested

Completely unfounded, but one dodgy character in his 70s living in the area comes immediately to mind. Unfair - but I'll be interested to see who it really is just in case my first thought happens to be a lucky guess.

ETA - how come Starr was named but this man isn't?

 

[ViolentPanda]

They publish a year book, which list members, so they can contact each other.

He must have got hold of a copy.

This investigator also got hold of a copy.

It's not exactly difficult to "get hold of a copy". You can find UGLE's yearbook in any decent reference library, or buy a copy from UGLE themselves.
Oh, and by the way, it doesn't list members, it lists office-holders and lodge details for every lodge. There's no central register of members. Each lodge keeps its' own membership files.

 

[smokedout]

I used to know Simon Reagan, at least a bit. He was a 'local character' in Camden when I used to live there. Or you might say, 'local nutter' generally to be found drunkenly haranguing random strangers about Prince Philip having Princess Di whacked and so on.

I wouldn't personally be inclined to build anything too substantial on him as a source.

came across this which is interesting and probably best posted without further comment

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/outed--portillo-is-one-of-the-good-guys-1277645.html

 

[ViolentPanda]

yep - it seems fairly obvious that someone will have been getting paid for supplying young boys from welsh (and probably other) homes for sex parties for London toffs in London, which is one of the allegation that was made in the last couple of days by one of the boys who alleges he was a regular at these sex parties.

Why does it seem "fairly obvious"?
Sure, you can make an assumption that someone, somewhere along the line was pimping those boys, but given that "the line" was made up of paedophiles, it's not necessarily an accurate assumption.

 

[Corax]

Why does it seem "fairly obvious"?
Sure, you can make an assumption that someone, somewhere along the line was pimping those boys, but given that "the line" was made up of paedophiles, it's not necessarily an accurate assumption.

Whether someone was paid for supplying boys or not, I do think it's probable that there'll be a money trail of some sort in amongst all this. Greed is ubiquitous.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What does that mean?

means he's checking himself to see if he has a high temperature.

 

[caoineadh7]

It's not exactly difficult to "get hold of a copy". You can find UGLE's yearbook in any decent reference library, or buy a copy from UGLE themselves.
Oh, and by the way, it doesn't list members, it lists office-holders and lodge details for every lodge. There's no central register of members. Each lodge keeps its' own membership files.

Wow, you seem very up on all that shit. Its creepy.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Whether someone was paid for supplying boys or not, I do think it's probable that there'll be a money trail of some sort in amongst all this. Greed is ubiquitous.

Yes, but free spirit was referring specifically to someone paying someone else for the boys, not to there being a money trail per se, which as you say, is likely, although given that banking records weren't fully-electronic until the late '80s, could be a big problem (although not necessarily insurmountable).

 

[where to]

came across this which is interesting and probably best posted without further comment

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/outed--portillo-is-one-of-the-good-guys-1277645.html

Thanks.

Would recommend this read to anyone following this story closely.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Wow, you seem very up on all that shit. Its creepy.

Here it comes, the insinuations that "this guy must be a Mason because he knows about Freemasonry".
Sorry, sport. I'm no Mason. My foster-dad was, though, so I know the difference between red lodge and blue lodge, the difference between the various orders and rites. All stuff you can also find out really easily with google, by the way.

You want to know what is really creepy? That you actually equate knowledge and creepiness. How bloody sad are you, eh?

 

[tufty79]

just a note on the google thing: even if messham's got/has had internet access for a while, i would be a bit surprised if he'd never googled lord mcalpine, but i wouldn't be surprised if he'd never specifically google image searched him (the former doesn't always come up with pictures).

im o/wildly different e.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It means you are an idiot for suggesting that Paul Mason is a dot we should join.

He was taking the piss, tbf.

 

[butchersapron]

Wow, you seem very up on all that shit. Its creepy.

See?

 

[1%er]

or is it irrelevant that one of the abusers was the son of the regions top freemason (and member of the police board), as was the local copper with responsibility for the homes against whom multiple allegations were also made (though not proven)?

So guilt by association is it. I don't think his fathers golf club is relevant why should I think any other club his fathers was a member of is relevant

 

[ViolentPanda]

you're missing the point completely. the network is held together because if one person goes down then everyone is at risk - that makes it very strong, particularly as the risks are so great. therefore the network is self-supporting, it doesnt want or need outsiders unless they join the shared risk and get involved.

sure on an individual level favours may be asked, but thats the same whether people drink in the same pub or use the same lodge. for freemasonry to be more important than where they drank, and therefore not a distraction, there needs to be established some systematic behaviour by non noncing masons to protect the nonces - there hasnt been and isnt likely to be unless you buy into the idea that organisationally freemasons would protect a paedophile ring for freemasonic reasons

Not even because of their pledges. There's plenty of cases of Masons breaking their pledges to report corruption, and being taken into new lodges despite that. The majority of Masons do actually hold to the line that they must always act with honour to all, not just to fellow Masons.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm just drawing attention at the speed in Wilson came upon to undermine Watsons comments in parliament. There is nothing wrong with questioning it, and Wilson is very much within his right to continue in such a way. But what good does a mp attacking another on the basis of asking for an investigation into a very serious matter which still has stones left unturned do? What was his justification. Likewise against ITV. There were no names shown. Likewise with BBC... there was no name named....

Frankly though, one only need ask "Who is Rob Wilson MP?" and then look up his Parliamentary history to conclude that he's a mouthpiece for someone else. The most likely puppet-master being the Whip's Office. It's common for the whips to use someone of Wilson's lowly rank (Ministerial bag-carrier) to sow information/propaganda for them.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's possible that Person A is given an monetary/or other incentive, yes.
It is also possible that it was simply part of their job and/or the incentive was access to other boys as the interviewee did say there were boys from other homes at the parties too.

Or even some other form of quid pro quo.

Does it matter, really? Does it change anything?

Nope.

 

[ViolentPanda]

If I can venture an idea without you invoking godwins law again, I was thinking that a likely candidate for a journalist showing multiple victims photos would be simon regan from scallywag. Given that he's on the record saying that he met with 12 of them and had got signed statements off 10 of them, which he says backed up his allegations, one of which related to Lord McAlpine.

Simon Regan said a lot. What's been substantiated?