N_igma
Epistemic nuisance
Of course he has and he's right to do so.
Good result for Sinn Féin, not sure though if they'll be big vote getters in future elections.
Historic defeat of Fianna Fail
- Thread starter bolshiebhoy
- Start date
Of course he has and he's right to do so.
Good result for Sinn Féin, not sure though if they'll be big vote getters in future elections.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
What is the significance of the increased vote for Sinn Fein? What are they offering?
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
Vengeance.
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
Eight independents to be painstakingly eliminated one by one in Dublin South Central. Then a green, then two FG ...
Labour Byrne likely to reach quota at some point during that ...
Can't see a result tonight ...
Labour Byrne likely to reach quota at some point during that ...
Can't see a result tonight ...
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
RTE predicting five seats for ULA - ie calling it for Collins & Boyd Barrett.
Iguana
Well-Known Member
Because he's hoping he won't have to. It may just be possible for FG to form a government with a number of Independents.
In many ways that might end up better for the country long-term. We'd actually end up with a sensible ideological split to the country, with a rightwing government and a reasonably large leftwing opposition. No more splits based upon a 90 year old treaty.
It would be shit for the next few years, but they will be shit anyway, and by the next election we would get a governement made up of a leftwing coalition. If FG and Lab go in together this time round there is a very big chance that 5 years from now FF will regain an awful lot of lost ground and everything will go back to how it's been since the inception of the state.
8den
No I'm pretty sure that was 8ball...
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Sorry, probably a thick question, but why, historically, have people voted FF or FG? Has it really been to do with the Civil War, or is there something else?
Iguana
Well-Known Member
Look at Laois-Offaly. Over 20 candidates for 5 seats. No-one elected yet.
http://www.rte.ie/news/election2011/results/laois-offaly.html
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Yep, that's pretty much it.
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
Independents Shane Ross and Mattie McGrath have indicated that they would be willing to lead a group of 6-8 to form a coalition with FG. FG however are stressing 'stability for five years' so odds are still on a FG-Lab coalition, but you never know ...
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
The Graun is talking up a FG/Lab coalition
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/26/fianna-fail-irish-general-election
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/26/fianna-fail-irish-general-election
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
It really is the civil war, plus the political inadequacy of Labour (which will enter government yet again), and the fact that although FF and FG were centre-right, they were centre-right in different ways.
To grasp the character of FG in British terms, imagine a hypothetical party combining the Ken Clarke wing of the Tories with the right wing of the Lib Dems.
In a typical provincial Irish town and its hinterland, FG would have been the party of strong farmers, and urban professionals.
FF - which has no real equivalent, even hypothetically, in British terms - would have sought, as part of its self-image as a national movement rather than a mere party, the votes not only of local capitalists, but also their workers, and of small farmers.
And FF won those votes too - until one day the wheels came off.
rekil
to menny cranks
Just back from the count centre for my constituency, I didn't realise it was five minutes from my house. My brother told me that one of the workers spotted a doomed outgoing FF TD coming in so he called him. He was ignored twice, but the third time the TD turns round and goes 'yes?', and the worker says, 'there's jobs going in Lidl'.
Blueshirts all over the place. Ugh.
Blueshirts all over the place. Ugh.
Iguana
Well-Known Member
It's pretty much the treaty. My grandmother votes for FF because they were her father's civil war buddies. She would never articulate it like that, but it's her main reason.
There is very little ideology to differentiate the two parties. It all just stems from people voting for who their parents voted for. The other main reason for people voting one way or the other is which TD pretended to help them sort out their personal issues, and they usually go to the party their parents did.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
FF have been the dominant party and basically shaped the old Ireland into what it was – church-dominated, conservative, moralistic govt. But they represent the losers of the Civil War. Does that mean that there are certain parts of the establishment who have always favoured FG – business leaders for instance? Does it indicate a split between various parts of the Irish establishment, and have voters voted according to which part of the establishment they most favour?
It must have developed into something else over the decades.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
So both parties basically agreed with de Valera's vision of Ireland?
Iguana
Well-Known Member
They should just go into government with what's left of FF, that would be the most stable as they are pretty much the same anyway. They could change their name to Fine Fail.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
FF still live in Dev's shadow (and it's a pretty long shadow for a dead man). They have no vision and no ideas; they are forever stuck in the 1930's.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
FF and FG should perhaps both be seen as coalitions of different fractions of the contending social classes in Ireland (this maybe one reason why the class nature of Irish society is obscure to so many people).
Has anyone ever done a breakdown of who supports FF and FG among the big movers and shakers? I know that in the lat '20s Cumman na nGael, the direct ancestors of FG, absorbed the rump of the southern Unionist party, who'd been left behind after partition. I presume they would have included a particular sort of business interests?
Has anyone ever done a breakdown of who supports FF and FG among the big movers and shakers? I know that in the lat '20s Cumman na nGael, the direct ancestors of FG, absorbed the rump of the southern Unionist party, who'd been left behind after partition. I presume they would have included a particular sort of business interests?
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
I disagree entirely. They broke with Dev's politics quite decisively, and did so while Dev was alive.
I don't just mean the Lemass programme of opening to foreign capital (something that goes back to the founding of the IDA in 1949), but also things like CJH's de facto abolition of literary censorship in 1967.
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
Most interesting transfer of the night from the Stickies ...
Cork North Central
Ted Tynan Workers Party 741 transferred as follows
+201 Sinn Fein (!)
+191 Socialist Party
+106 +58 Labour
+23 +41 Fine Gael
+57 +4 Independent
+34 Fianna Fail
Cork North Central
Ted Tynan Workers Party 741 transferred as follows
+201 Sinn Fein (!)
+191 Socialist Party
+106 +58 Labour
+23 +41 Fine Gael
+57 +4 Independent
+34 Fianna Fail
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
Not yet, but very very likely.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Maybe, but the culture is still there.
Iguana
Well-Known Member
This is very simplistic but yeah, in terms of ideology they are very similar. They were largely the same group with very similar aims right up until Dec 1921. If there hadn't been such a strong Unionist movement in the north and the 26 and 6 counties were never separated there would never have been such a large split from the original SF. Some fringe groups would have split off, but not enough to have made this instant opposition.
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
Hypothetical? Isn't that what's running the UK government?
Similar threads
