Historic defeat of Fianna Fail

[8den]

So far, Joan Collins, Clare Dale, Seanus Healey and Joe Higgins elected from the ULA list.

If they're still referred lumped in with the independents in the Dail I'll scream.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Supporting Ivana is personal for me unashamedly. Based on shared struggles when we were both students on those pesky 'liberal' issues that are very easy to take for granted when the battle with the SPUCers has been won. Ideologically she's more a radical democrat than a socialist it's fair to say and I couldn't care less

 

[Fisher_Gate]

... However, your second point is incorrect. Seanad elections work that way, but in Dail elections, the surplus distributed consists of randomly chosen ballots rather than a calculated proportion.

The Prof at UCD has got it wrong too then.
http://www.rte.ie/news/election2011/mechanicsprstv.html
He says that all the second preferences are all identified, but the physical ballots moved are random, up to the value of the surplus. I looked it up yesterday, as I've never actually been inside the count of an Irish election, though I've been returning officer for many elections under the so-called 'Gregory method' of STV, which is the Seanad method where as you say the whole of the physical ballot is moved at a fractional value which slows things down even more, especially if one persons surplus contributes to anothers surplus and you get fractions of fractions.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

The Prof at UCD has got it wrong too then.
http://www.rte.ie/news/election2011/mechanicsprstv.html
He says that all the second preferences are all identified, but the physical ballots moved are random, up to the value of the surplus. I looked it up yesterday, as I've never actually been inside the count of an Irish election, though I've been returning officer for many elections under the so-called 'Gregory method' of STV, which is the Seanad method where as you say the whole of the physical ballot is moved at a fractional value which slows things down even more, especially if one persons surplus contributes to anothers surplus and you get fractions of fractions.

Actually the explanation here is better than the one from the Prof at UCD. And I now see what you mean. Thanks for the clarification.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counting_Single_Transferable_Votes#Initial_surplus

I still prefer the Gregory method ...

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Supporting Ivana is personal for me unashamedly. Based on shared struggles when we were both students on those pesky 'liberal' issues that are very easy to take for granted when the battle with the SPUCers has been won. Ideologically she's more a radical democrat than a socialist it's fair to say and I couldn't care less

So what makes her better than Boyd Barrett?

 

[8den]

Supporting Ivana is personal for me unashamedly. Based on shared struggles when we were both students on those pesky 'liberal' issues that are very easy to take for granted when the battle with the SPUCers has been won. Ideologically she's more a radical democrat than a socialist it's fair to say and I couldn't care less

I've met Bacik and Barrett a few times, and Barrett has always struck me as a incredibly ruthless and cynical character, albeit one who's heart is in the right place. if that makes sense.

There is still a very real chance Hanafin can beat them both and hold her seat. Either side would prefer Barrett or Bacik to that outcome.

 

[Idris2002]

Dev was the last Taoiseach who less well off when he left office than when he entered it.

His personal style was flinty and austere, a sharp contrast with the bon viveur Haughey.

 

[Idris2002]

I've met Bacik and Barrett a few times, and Barrett has always struck me as a incredibly ruthless and cynical character, albeit one who's heart is in the right place. if that makes sense.

There is still a very real chance Hanafin can beat them both and hold her seat. Either side would prefer Barrett or Bacik to that outcome.

RBB is SWP after all. If he does make it over the hurdle they will become utterly insufferable.

 

[8den]

So what makes her better than Boyd Barrett?

My problem with Boyd Barrett is that he's SWP. This election he's People before Profit. I think in 2002 He was Globalise Resistance, between those two he was Irish Anti War Movement.

It says alot about the man's politics that he can't announce his party and his allegiance, but has to throw on a variety of disguises to mask his true party. Higgins Daly and Collins are ULA, but they're also out and proud Socialist Party members.

Alot of people will have time for Bacik because she's been fighting for Abortion rights in Ireland for going on 3 decades now. There are posters up around Dublin suggesting a vote for Labour is a vote for baby killing.

For someone to stick to their principles and argument for 30 years, knowing it's cost you at least one election already. Well I like Bacik.

 

[Idris2002]

Supporting Ivana is personal for me unashamedly. Based on shared struggles when we were both students on those pesky 'liberal' issues that are very easy to take for granted when the battle with the SPUCers has been won. Ideologically she's more a radical democrat than a socialist it's fair to say and I couldn't care less

Fair enough, I suppose. It's easy to forget how it was in the old days.

One thing I could never get my head round was SPUC demanding that the TCD students' union funds be turned over to them. Was there any legal basis to that at all?

 

[8den]

Dev was the last Taoiseach who less well off when he left office than when he entered it.

His personal style was flinty and austere, a sharp contrast with the bon viveur Haughey.

That is a absolute LIE.

DeValera abused his position and authority for financial gain.

FORMER President Eamon de Valera tricked the Irish and American public into investing in the Irish Press, which he rigged to make his family rich.

New files unearthed for the first time unravel the complex web de Valera wove to con investors into believing they were putting their savings towards a public company. Instead, thousands of Irish Americans invested in a lucrative family business.

Ten years after the collapse of the newspaper group and the loss of 600 jobs, a documentary finally reveals the full story behind the Irish Press and tells how de Valera used clever business tactics to secure full control fromthe off.

Founded in 1931, the Irish Press was supposed to be a paper for the people, committed to telling "the truth in news" and to be used as a platform for the newly formed Fianna Fail Party.

Thousands of ordinary men and women in Ireland and America answered de Valera's call to invest their savings in the newspaper, which was seen as an emblem of an independent Ireland.

To this day, the only people who have ever benefited financially from the business, which was once Ireland's most successful, are de Valera's sons and grandson.

Files, hidden away for years, will finally reveal how de Valera took deliberate steps to make sure the money invested by his supporters secured control of a mighty business for himself and his offspring. Hidden History documentary Family Fortunes details how de Valera sent fundraisers to America to drum up interest in his envisioned Irish Press.

Despite the great depression, he managed to get $250,000 entrusted to them for investment in the paper.

But de Valera already had plans for any money raised in the US and had cautioned his fundraisers to pitch the campaign to the Irish-Americans.

He had warned them to be careful not to suggest that they would get shares orcertificates directly from the company, but instead would get participation certificates from an American trust company.

Instead of getting shares in Irish Press Limited, they received certificates from Irish Press Corporation which was registered in Delaware, the US equivalent of Switzerland. Files undisclosed for decades show that once de Valera had secured the money in 1931 the company sent out 'A' class share certificates from IPC.

Although there were over 60,000 'A' class shares, total control of the company would rest with the owner of 200 'B' class shares.

In a simple transaction, the documents reveal how de Valera, the owner of the B class shares, gained total power of over $250,000.

"Nobody could take it from him. This was carried on out of sight of the public. And the next phase would be to use the American company money to purchase a huge block of shares in Irish Press Limited - the company back inIreland," the documentaryexplains.

By clever cloaking of figures - a move that would no doubt be the subject of tribunal investigations these days - de Valera secured purchasing control of 43 per cent of Irish Press Limited for a paltry sum of $1,000.

Although claiming to act in the interest of the American investors, de Valera knew any business-savvy savers would realise they had been tricked.

He put aside 5000 shares from Irish Press Limited to give to anyone who complained or questioned their share certs.

On September 5, 1931 the Irish Press began publication and, in the documentary, former workers will describe the confusion and cramped conditions inside the building.

Author Tim Pat Coogan says the paper was an instant hit as it covered topics like the GAA for the first time ever.

Distributed at masses by priests, the paper targetedanti-treaty republicans and sought to rally support for the Fianna Fail party.

Former TD John Browne questioned the running of the paper and why no dividends had been paid to shareholders, and after much Dail debate it emerged that de Valera had set up the company to give himself total control under the title Controlling Director.

As debate continued, the 77-year-old stepped down as Taoiseach and was appointed President - a move that would overshadow his dodgy business dealing.

"It is just a sad story of how idealism and revolutions start in hope and glory and end up fumbling in a greasy till," says Tim Pat Coogan.

http://www.independent.ie/national-...sting-in-irish-press-file-reveals-485691.html

The documentary is called "family fortune: DeValera's Irish Press" I worked on it. DeValera made a fortune from this paper.

 

[Idris2002]

You're an Indo hack?

Cassio, nevermore be lieutenant of mine.



And does this really contradict what I said?

To this day, the only people who have ever benefited financially from the business, which was once Ireland's most successful, are de Valera's sons and grandson.

I was talking about Dev's own personal benefit from being Taoiseach, not about what his sons or grandsons might have got from it. Which is different from the lust for personal wealth accumulation and conspicuous consumption that characterised Haughey.

But, really, thanks for the link. It suggests that FF corruption was there from day one, not just a product of Taca and the Lemass years.

 

[Fedayn]

If they're still referred lumped in with the independents in the Dail I'll scream.

RTE have them as 'socialists', however they have Seamus Healey in with the Independents.

 

[nino_savatte]

That is a absolute LIE.

DeValera abused his position and authority for financial gain.



http://www.independent.ie/national-...sting-in-irish-press-file-reveals-485691.html

The documentary is called "family fortune: DeValera's Irish Press" I worked on it. DeValera made a fortune from this paper.

Which is partly what I meant when I used the word "culture". There is, of course, the way in which FF see themselves as the [true] republican party too; it's the way they tend to monopolise the word "republican". FF believe that power is rightfully theirs because of Dev. In fact, and I think it's already been mentioned or hinted at, there has always been at least one member of the family in the Dail.

Cowen was being interviewed last night and the interviewer said something along the lines of "Are you still the party of De Valera"?

That reminds me, how did O'Cuiv do? Bet he hung on to his seat.

 

[8den]

You're an Indo hack?

Cassio, nevermore be lieutenant of mine.

No


I worked on the documentary that that the article is based on.

http://www.iftn.ie/filmography/byye...&rid=2728&tpl=filmography_dets&only=1&force=1

Try reading what I wrote!!!! Indo hack indeed.

And does this really contradict what I said?

You said

Dev was the last Taoiseach who less well off when he left office than when he entered it.

DeV was well off when he entered the office of Taoiseach, and while as Taoiseach he had a state media in his pocket and a private paper run for his own personal and political.

Theres a instance in the documentary where a elderly journalist remembers being taken to task about his reporting of a DeV rally after mass, and is informed to re write his copy, that there are never any less then thousands at a DeV rally.

I was talking about Dev's own personal benefit from being Taoiseach, not about what his sons or grandsons might have got from it. Which is different from the lust for personal wealth accumulation and conspicuous consumption that characterised Haughey.

He bought a house in Blackrock when the country was on it's knees, the country was bankrupt and Harry Browne was asking questions about the funding of the Irish Press in 1959 when DeV stepped down and became president.

Face it DeV was wealthy when he wasnt Taoiseach, was wealthy when Taoiseach (thanks to the Press) he immediately became President for the full two terms, and then retired with a full presidential and taoiseach's pension and the share dividend of the Irish Press.

The myth that DeV gave the clothes of his back to the people of Ireland is complete bullshit, and feeds into mawkish elderly pensioner support
for FF!
His spiritual heir is Haughey and Ahern.

But, really, thanks for the link. It suggests that FF corruption was there from day one, not just a product of Taca and the Lemass years.

Okay...Thank you. I wish I could find a link to the documentary. We used shitloads of Aphex Twins Drukqs in the soundtrack. It's actually very cool

 

[Fisher_Gate]

I've met Bacik and Barrett a few times, and Barrett has always struck me as a incredibly ruthless and cynical character, albeit one who's heart is in the right place. if that makes sense.

There is still a very real chance Hanafin can beat them both and hold her seat. Either side would prefer Barrett or Bacik to that outcome.

He's just been interviewed on Radio and is confident of victory - it's only a recheck of bundles for three candidates, himself, Bacik and the leading FG candidate Barrett. He says the Labour Party think some bundles have gone astray but he says the count was very thorough and no-one else saw anything go wrong. He says the tallies seem to indicate he will get enough of the Labour transfers to overtake Hanafin.

 

[Fedayn]

How many TD's do you need in the Dail to get 'group' status?

 

[joevsimp]

I think that's because ULA wasn't registered with the electoral commission in time, so Socialist, PBP and Independent are what they're standing as

Hopefully they'll start referringh to them properly once the dail convenes, are there any rules like there are in the european parliament for forming a "proper" group

 

[Fisher_Gate]

RTE have them as 'socialists', however they have Seamus Healey in with the Independents.

Because his description on the ballot paper was 'Independent'. However he is ULA. There are around 5 or 6 other left wing 'Independents' who could form a 'technical group' with the ULA. Two of them have indicated they are open to this (Pringle and Halligan who are ex-SF and ex-WP respectively). Boyd Barrett indicated he would be going for this option to put pressure on SF to form an anti-austerity block of about 25 TDs.

 

[joevsimp]

Because his description on the ballot paper was 'Independent'. However he is ULA. There are around 5 or 6 other left wing 'Independents' who could form a 'technical group' with the ULA. Two of them have indicated they are open to this (Pringle and Halligan who are ex-SF and ex-WP respectively). Boyd Barrett indicated he would be going for this option to put pressure on SF to form an anti-austerity block of about 25 TDs.

sounds good, any further indication as to what side Labour will be sitting on?

 

[nino_savatte]

Martin on RTE now taking a swipe at the Shinners, whom he described as a "paramilitary" party.

 

[N_igma]

sounds good, any further indication as to what side Labour will be sitting on?

What do you mean?

 

[N_igma]

Martin on RTE now taking a swipe at the Shinners, whom he described as a "paramilitary" party.

The "true" Republican party my fucking arse!

 

[nino_savatte]

The "true" Republican party my fucking arse!

 

[joevsimp]

will they go in with fg or leave them to a minority?

 

[N_igma]

will they go in with fg or leave them to a minority?

They'll go with FG. No doubt about it.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

sounds good, any further indication as to what side Labour will be sitting on?

The likely final tally of seats and the character of the independents is such that the outside chance of FG/Ind coalition now appears extremely unlikely, and FG/Lab is still very much the most likely outcome.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

I think that's because ULA wasn't registered with the electoral commission in time, so Socialist, PBP and Independent are what they're standing as

Hopefully they'll start referringh to them properly once the dail convenes, are there any rules like there are in the european parliament for forming a "proper" group

RTE now very much talking about ULA.

Yes they can form a technical group but under the rules they need a minimum of 10 (a 'majority of those not in the recognised parties' ie 10 out of 19 - 14 inds and 5 ULA). Boyd Barrett has claimed that is possible and at least two independents have indicated they are open to working with ULA on RTE.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

They'll go with FG. No doubt about it.

I think if FG could have got together with a ragbag of half a dozen neo fascist independents they might have gone for it over a coalition with Labour, but it now looks like Labour's dream of joining the most vicious right wing government in Irish history is about to happen.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Boyd Barrett's won it!