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I think you've hit the nail right on the head.

A son of that house (no.34) died in the first war

Savel, HR - Dulwich College 1914-18 – Fallen of the Great War

Born on May 9th 1892, Harold was the second child, and eldest son, born to railway worker Richard Savel and his wife, Edith. He joined Dulwich in the summer of 1905, starting a trend which would later be followed by both his younger brothers. He went on to be a particularly keen rugby player...
dulwichcollege1914-18.co.uk

So the military association could have followed on through to WW2
 
teuchter said:
I think there are some little half landing windows yes, and I think that makes an argument for it being the back.

I might opt for nos 34&36 rather than 2&4 though. The way 2&4 are drawn on the map, looks like the rear gable portion projects out further, and it also looks like they have side rather than rear garden doors. 34 and 36 seem to match 38 better.

Plus, the "ruins" and greenhouse shown in the back garden seem to be about where we would want them to be.

View attachment 213260

I wonder if an email to the Dulwich Prep school could produce any further info.
Click to expand...
Excellent - I like those better than 2 and 4 too. Didn't spot them before. Gardens are a good bit longer as well.
 
Results of a bit of Googling:

The teaching block now on the site of 34-36 is called the Betws Building. Put up in 1995 but alas Southwark’s planning database only goes back to 1996 - and the old houses may have been long gone by then, so no guarantee of site survey drawings in the application.

Can’t find out who the architect was either - nothing coming up in the obvious places or via RIBA.

I’m sure Teuchter is going to win the prize here - but a bit of confirmation would be great. I really am minded to drop the school a line.

But can the hive mind beat me to it. Eh? Eh?
 
I think 34-36 went in the late 50s when Kingsdale School was built; here is a 1959 map

Screen Shot 2020-05-18 at 23.16.34.jpg

If I've got my bearings right, 38 is to the right of the 'E' in ALLEYN PARK.

It looks from this that 34-36 would therefore have been on land that became Kingsdale school, a state school built by the LCC late 50s and designed by Leslie Martin (who designed the Royal Festival Hall). It was refurbed in 2004 and apparently was the subject of a channel 4 documentary that no longer seems available.

But it appears that the "Betws building" is part of Dulwich prep... so did Kingsdale School sell that bit of land to them at some point?

Perhaps Kingsdale School would be more likely to have record of what was there before, if so.

(As an aside I can't seem to find many images of the original Kingsdale School building online, strangely.)
 
teuchter said:
I think 34-36 went in the late 50s when Kingsdale School was built; here is a 1959 map

View attachment 213340

If I've got my bearings right, 38 is to the right of the 'E' in ALLEYN PARK.

It looks from this that 34-36 would therefore have been on land that became Kingsdale school, a state school built by the LCC late 50s and designed by Leslie Martin (who designed the Royal Festival Hall). It was refurbed in 2004 and apparently was the subject of a channel 4 documentary that no longer seems available.

But it appears that the "Betws building" is part of Dulwich prep... so did Kingsdale School sell that bit of land to them at some point?

Perhaps Kingsdale School would be more likely to have record of what was there before, if so.

(As an aside I can't seem to find many images of the original Kingsdale School building online, strangely.)
Click to expand...
Good find on the 1959 map - I couldn't turn up anything of that period detailed enough.

There's a 1940 aerial view on NCAP that shows all the houses: West Dulwich; Greater London Authority; England | NCAP - National Collection of Aerial Photography

Then there's one from 1966 where they are clearly gone and the 1950s school buildings are there.

Maybe someone with an account can get to the high-res version?

What happened to the division of territory between Kingsdale and Dulwich Prep is anyone's guess. I ran down there again this morning and there's a post-war boundary wall that runs along the front of both properties, topped by very utilitarian black steel railings. Into this a newer opening has been cut to give vehicle access to the Betws Building, so I think your theory that they were once one site holds some water - but the '59 map is a bit ambiguous.

The Betws building is so named because the prep school evacuated to Betws-y-coed for most of WWII. This would have left their buildings (if indeed they had title to those houses at the time) available for other useful things to support the war effort.
 
This is quite magnificent

Is this the most amazing NHS tribute in London? Behold the Herne Hill diorama!


Is this the most amazing NHS tribute in London? Behold the Herne Hill diorama!


www.brixtonbuzz.com

Is this the most amazing NHS tribute in London? Behold the Herne Hill 360 degree diorama!

We’ve seen some pretty impressive home-made tributes to NHS workers on our daily walks, but we fancy this new art installation in Herne Hill must be up there with the very best in London.
www.brixtonbuzz.com www.brixtonbuzz.com
 
Jimbeau said:
Good find on the 1959 map - I couldn't turn up anything of that period detailed enough.

There's a 1940 aerial view on NCAP that shows all the houses: West Dulwich; Greater London Authority; England | NCAP - National Collection of Aerial Photography

Then there's one from 1966 where they are clearly gone and the 1950s school buildings are there.

Maybe someone with an account can get to the high-res version?

What happened to the division of territory between Kingsdale and Dulwich Prep is anyone's guess. I ran down there again this morning and there's a post-war boundary wall that runs along the front of both properties, topped by very utilitarian black steel railings. Into this a newer opening has been cut to give vehicle access to the Betws Building, so I think your theory that they were once one site holds some water - but the '59 map is a bit ambiguous.

The Betws building is so named because the prep school evacuated to Betws-y-coed for most of WWII. This would have left their buildings (if indeed they had title to those houses at the time) available for other useful things to support the war effort.
Click to expand...
Screen Shot 2020-05-19 at 11.32.26.jpg
Here's a more detailed map that suggests strongly the houses' grounds were taken into the "Kingsdale School" grounds at that point.

Interesting that the prep school evacuated - certainly it would seem to make sense that the buildings might then have been requisitioned for military use, obviously easier to use one that's already been converted to institutional use than it would have been if they were private houses.
 
teuchter said:
View attachment 213392
Here's a more detailed map that suggests strongly the houses' grounds were taken into the "Kingsdale School" grounds at that point.

Interesting that the prep school evacuated - certainly it would seem to make sense that the buildings might then have been requisitioned for military use, obviously easier to use one that's already been converted to institutional use than it would have been if they were private houses.
Click to expand...
What I find fascinating about this map is that it shows that the whole prep school seems to have come about by daisy-chaining several of these big houses together. It says on their web page that they began with 13 boys in 1885 and two years later had grown their cohort to more than 100. Buying up properties along the street seems to be the only way they could have grown so quickly.

A closer look at the main red-brick school building at 40-44 suggests the two original houses still form the core - extended upwards with towers and with a link block now built between them. Google Maps

The Kingsdale thing is mystery - maybe they leased the land to the council to raise some cash after the war and got it back in the 90s.

Anyway - getting off topic into a rabbit hole here. I'm now sold on 34-36 Alleyn Park being the location of the mystery photo. Quite how it came to be labelled as Herne Hill is a puzzle that might never be solved. There are five other railway stations that are closer, for example.
 
BoxRoom said:
www.southwarknews.co.uk

Herne Hill’s Cafe Provencal permanently closes

Herne Hill’s Cafe Provencal has shut down permanently after its managers said COVID-19 was the last straw in a series
www.southwarknews.co.uk www.southwarknews.co.uk

Cafe Provencal permanently closing. Always somewhere I meant to check out when I went by. Shame that.
Click to expand...
They never really recovered from the 2015 flood. Real shame to see it go. This is how it looks now:

Herne Hill's popular Cafe Provencal has closed for good, with COVID-19 proving the final straw

www.brixtonbuzz.com

Herne Hill’s popular Cafe Provencal has closed for good, with COVID-19 proving the final straw

It’s been a local landmark on the busy corner close to Brockwell Park since it opened in 1994, but Cafe Provencal has now permanently closed, with the ongoing coronavirus pandemic proving to …
www.brixtonbuzz.com www.brixtonbuzz.com
 
BoxRoom said:
www.southwarknews.co.uk

Herne Hill’s Cafe Provencal permanently closes

Herne Hill’s Cafe Provencal has shut down permanently after its managers said COVID-19 was the last straw in a series
www.southwarknews.co.uk www.southwarknews.co.uk

Cafe Provencal permanently closing. Always somewhere I meant to check out when I went by. Shame that.
Click to expand...

"Two floods, a fire and now this. No more energy."

Can see his point, clearly didnt get the best of luck.
 
editor said:
This is quite magnificent

Is this the most amazing NHS tribute in London? Behold the Herne Hill diorama!


Is this the most amazing NHS tribute in London? Behold the Herne Hill diorama!


www.brixtonbuzz.com

Is this the most amazing NHS tribute in London? Behold the Herne Hill 360 degree diorama!

We’ve seen some pretty impressive home-made tributes to NHS workers on our daily walks, but we fancy this new art installation in Herne Hill must be up there with the very best in London.
www.brixtonbuzz.com www.brixtonbuzz.com
Click to expand...

It's fantastic isn't it? It was made by a talented chap called Kevin who lives on casino avenue. Apparently the museum of London have asked to have them for their collection. This his website: Home | kevin-mckeon-
 
Jimbeau said:
I'm now sold on 34-36 Alleyn Park being the location of the mystery photo.
Click to expand...
Here they are - the elusive buggers. Little back gables, greenhouses and garden path behind no. 34 and everything. Aerial photo from 1944. Turns out they may have been hit by a V1 on 21st July 1944 - just a few weeks after the RAF ladies were photographed. FlyingBombsandRockets,V1 & V2 Dulwich E21 & SE22

Screenshot 2020-05-19 at 21.05.44.png
 
Not sure how many HH residents are aware of the traffic changes Lambeth, the "Co-operative" council are rushing through this week under the guise of "COVID-19 Emergency Response". A series of planters, i.e. barriers, are being placed across the area to discourage traffic. Although it's excellent news for the Poet's Corner/Railton Road side of Herne Hill it is dreadful news for the north end of Shakespeare Road (Mayall Road to Coldharbour Lane). The Shakespeare Road barrier will deny access to the Poet's Corner "Bubble" from the north end and increase heavy goods lorries by 100% as the Norris building rubble recycling centre and the Network Rail Depot vehicles will only be able to access northbound, from Coldharbour Lane. What is upsetting is that the less affluent end of Shakespeare Road and Coldharbour Lane will be effectively cut-off from the rest of Herne Hill and see a dramatic increase in pollution. KCL are carrying out research re: effects of pollution, particularly on children exposed when walking to and from school. Research also suggests pollution exacerbates COVID symptoms so why are Lambeth wanting to push traffic into already busy/polluted roads (Coldharbour Lane/Brixton/LJ). Click on link to read a recent New Scientist article Are you more likely to die of covid-19 if you live in a polluted area?
One more thing: as usual, zero consultation from Lambeth with the residents, just a hand-drawn map pushed through doors end of last week.
At times like this we should be united as a community, not divided by barriers. Plenty to discuss.
 
Last edited:
Rocky Sullivan said:
Not sure how many HH residents are aware of the traffic changes Lambeth, the "Co-operative" council are rushing through this week under the guise of "COVID-19 Emergency Response". A series of planters, i.e. barriers, are being placed across the area to discourage traffic. Although it's excellent news for the Poet's Corner/Railton Road side of Herne Hill it is dreadful news for the north end of Shakespeare Road (Mayall Road to Coldharbour Lane). The Shakespeare Road barrier will deny access to the Poet's Corner "Bubble" from the north end and increase heavy goods lorries by 100% as the Norris building rubble recycling centre and the Network Rail Depot vehicles will only be able to access northbound, from Coldharbour Lane. What is upsetting is that the less affluent end of Shakespeare Road and Coldharbour Lane will be effectively cut-off from the rest of Herne Hill and see a dramatic increase in pollution. KCL are carrying out research re: effects of pollution, particularly on children exposed when walking to and from school. Research also suggests pollution exacerbates COVID symptoms so why are Lambeth wanting to push traffic into already busy/polluted roads (Coldharbour Lane/Brixton/LJ). Click on link to read a recent New Scientist article Are you more likely to die of covid-19 if you live in a polluted area?
One more thing: as usual, zero consultation from Lambeth with the residents, just a hand-drawn map pushed through doors end of last week.
At times like this we should be united as a community, not divided by barriers. Plenty to discuss.
Click to expand...

I completely agree ....

These closures will only push traffic onto surrounding roads and make them busier. Remember the disaster when the council closed Loughborough Rd and had to back track and reopen it ? Brixton Water Lane, Milkwood Rd, Coldharbour Lane, and Effra Rd will all become congested with queuing cars increasing pollution in the area. What are the queues going to be like at the already nightmare Herne Hill traffic lights ? Further traffic calming on Railton Rd with a system of one way streets within the Poets Corner area is the answer.

Shame on the council for using the human tragedy that is the pandemic to push this scheme on the area when its been under discussion since at least 2008. If they were really concerned about runners and cyclist then they’d have widened the pavements on Brixton Water Lane where the vast majority run and cycle years ago.

At the moment there is no way to contact the council about this other than Facebook and Twitter. No phone or email option. Why are they hiding ? Very, very, poor indeed.
 
That is an excellent suggestion, Lord Noise. Calming, enforcement of 20mph limit and Railton made one way would be the best option. Dividing the community, without consultation, is shabby behaviour.
 
FAO: The Editor. Hello there, do you think this matter should have its own thread. After all, it's not just Herne Hill, it will impact Brixton/Coldharbour Lane and LJ. Just a thought.
 
These closures will only push traffic onto surrounding roads and make them busier.
Click to expand...
Or a safer environment might lead to more people leaving the car at home. We don't have the capacity in terms of roads and parking spaces for everyone to drive so we need to expand other forms of transport. The existing traffic calming efforts on Railton have had the opposite effect.
 
Rocky Sullivan said:
FAO: The Editor. Hello there, do you think this matter should have its own thread. After all, it's not just Herne Hill, it will impact Brixton/Coldharbour Lane and LJ. Just a thought.
Click to expand...
www.urban75.net

Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

The more cynical part of me wonders about the Shakespeare Road no entry. The recycling centre is just past that and there’s constant skip lorries in and out. However they want to sell the site and build another massive load of flats. Be a lot easier to argue their case if they can’t easily...
www.urban75.net www.urban75.net
 
sleaterkinney said:
Or a safer environment might lead to more people leaving the car at home. We don't have the capacity in terms of roads and parking spaces for everyone to drive so we need to expand other forms of transport. The existing traffic calming efforts on Railton have had the opposite effect.
Click to expand...
All this proposed scheme does is increase by 100% the number of heavy goods vehicles thundering down north Shakespeare Road. It's not about cars it's about HGV pollution/speeding and dividing a community.
 
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