Herne Hill news, chitter chatter and gossip

[Jimbeau]

I've just been mucking about with www.shadowcalculator.eu

Assuming our zooming friends in the pic are around 1.6m/5'3" tall on average, the shortest shadows they would have cast in Herne Hill on 1/6/44 would have been 90cm long, between 1250 and 1320, and they would have fallen pretty much due North.

So I think this means those houses are facing East or Southeast (assuming we are looking at their fronts).

 

[Smick]

I've just been mucking about with www.shadowcalculator.eu

Assuming our zooming friends in the pic are around 1.6m/5'3" tall on average, the shortest shadows they would have cast in Herne Hill on 1/6/44 would have been 90cm long, between 1250 and 1320, and they would have fallen pretty much due North.

So I think this means those houses are facing East or Southeast (assuming we are looking at their fronts).

I love the internet.

 

[teuchter]

I've just been mucking about with www.shadowcalculator.eu

Assuming our zooming friends in the pic are around 1.6m/5'3" tall on average, the shortest shadows they would have cast in Herne Hill on 1/6/44 would have been 90cm long, between 1250 and 1320, and they would have fallen pretty much due North.

So I think this means those houses are facing East or Southeast (assuming we are looking at their fronts).

But we can't measure the shadows from the photo. They could be 90cm long or they could be 120cm long.

 

[Jimbeau]

But we can't measure the shadows from the photo. They could be 90cm long or they could be 120cm long.

I don't think so. If we go with 160cm as the average female height (ONS says it was 161.8cm in 2016) and they are standing slightly more than an arm span apart - I reckon that if they were upright they'd have 20cm between their fingertips - and with arm span being more or less 1:1 to height, then they're 180cm(ish) apart. No shadow extends more than halfway from one woman to her neighbour. Hence my guess at 90cm.

I actually thought about dropping some scale grids on in Illustrator or modelling it in Vectorworks but then I realised that my 'working from home' tea break was over and I had a deadline...

 

[teuchter]

No shadow extends more than halfway from one woman to her neighbour.

Yeah, but they extend backwards diagonally too, and that's the bit we can't measure.

I've just shut down my copy of Vectorworks till monday

 

[Jimbeau]

Yeah, but they extend backwards diagonally too, and that's the bit we can't measure.

I've just shut down my copy of Vectorworks till monday

We just need to draw in survey poles next to each woman, add the orthogonals, extrapolate vanishing points, then use a bit of trig.

I reckon we could work out the contours of the garden then match it to topo maps in the British Geological Survey with a bit of effort.

I jest.

( I think)

It’s beer time. That’s for sure.

 

[T & P]

It’s good to see a seemly-inconsequential-yet-must-know issue, such as the location of this mysterious RAF Women Herne Hill base, engaging the local Urban community.

I will definitely order the book this weekend even if we manage to work this out ourselves beforehand. If we are still none the wiser when the book arrives I will check the contents for the answer. Unless we’re having too much fun researching this of course, in which case I will withhold the answer for a bit longer.

 

[billythefish]

I love this thread! The (superb) original photo looked so familiar, but I have not found an exact match. However, my first port of call was Lancaster Avenue (HH / West Norwood borders), where a few similar houses still survive. It's the closest street of similar housing to Herne Hill I can think of.

 

[T & P]

I love this thread! The (superb) original photo looked so familiar, but I have not found an exact match. However, my first port of call was Lancaster Avenue (HH / West Norwood borders), where a few similar houses still survive. It's the closest street of similar housing to Herne Hill I can think of.

That’s a good shout as well. If we allow for whoever captioned the image to have been a bit relaxed about the actual parish lines for Herne Hill, a lot of promising areas open up. The far end of Half Moon Lane, which is neither HH nor Dulwich, or the flat bits around Croxted Road near the petrol station could have also easily accommodated such property.

 

[Ohmyemily]

Maybe it's the lockdown talking, but I'm enjoying this immensely. Only have this to contribute, which doesn't help at all...Herne Hill magazine

 

[teuchter]

That’s a good shout as well. If we allow for whoever captioned the image to have been a bit relaxed about the actual parish lines for Herne Hill, a lot of promising areas open up. The far end of Half Moon Lane, which is neither HH nor Dulwich, or the flat bits around Croxted Road near the petrol station could have also easily accommodated such property.

I've checked those areas out pretty thoroughly already.....

 

[T & P]

The book is temporarily out of stock

 

[T & P]

Maybe it's the lockdown talking, but I'm enjoying this immensely. Only have this to contribute, which doesn't help at all...Herne Hill magazine

Thanks for that. My other half found and pointed out this article as well, and we went on to check issue 147 of the magazine for the readers’ answers. It at least answers the question friendofdorothy was asking about the life saving devices the women were making. Apparently they are hand operated bellows to top up one-man dinghies that were issued to pilots in case they were to ditch into the sea.

No definite answer about the location of the property in question, though their educated guess is Burbage Road

Full article on page 9 of the magazine:

Herne Hill #147 (Autumn/Winter 2019)

The magazine of the Herne Hill Society © The Herne Hill Society

issuu.com

 

[Lizzy Mac]

So it could still be the secret building. Excellent.

 

[teuchter]

I actually went for a bit of a wander yesterday around that area, partly prompted by spending some time looking at it on google aerial view the other day as a result of this thread.

It's amazing how many private sports clubs and playing fields there are around Dulwich.

We got shouted at by a very angry man in one of them which didn't have its gates closed.

And somehow despite living within a couple of miles of it for the past 2 years, and generally being fairly curious and inclined to explore places, it was the first time I've walked through Belair Park. I expect that one of the benefits of this lockdown is that many people might be getting to know their immediate localities a bit better, and finding stuff they've always overlooked.

 

[Jimbeau]

I actually went for a bit of a wander yesterday around that area, partly prompted by spending some time looking at it on google aerial view the other day as a result of this thread.

It's amazing how many private sports clubs and playing fields there are around Dulwich.

We got shouted at by a very angry man in one of them which didn't have its gates closed.

And somehow despite living within a couple of miles of it for the past 2 years, and generally being fairly curious and inclined to explore places, it was the first time I've walked through Belair Park. I expect that one of the benefits of this lockdown is that many people might be getting to know their immediate localities a bit better, and finding stuff they've always overlooked.

Excellent. In a similar fashion we ventured into the Rosendale Rd allotments for the first time on Saturday - despite having spent nearly 20 years less than a mile away as the crow flies. What a place. They must have one of the best views in London.

And - sad but true - I also went for a run around some of the streets of big old houses between Norwood and Rosendale roads - Lancaster, Chestnut, Idmiston, etc, looking for candidates. I'm now 99% certain we're looking at the fronts of the two houses. Anything of that style (which I think is no later than 1870) doesn't have a grand facade to the garden, instead a mess of half levels, stair towers, kitchen wings and the like.

Also by the 1940s the majority of these grand villas had already gone, sometimes even before WWI, to be replaced by terraces or smaller Edwardian villas on much tighter plots. Great example on Barston Rd that has somehow survived when all around it was redone around the turn of the C20th: Google Maps

 

[Rushy]

I'm now 99% certain we're looking at the fronts of the two houses. Anything of that style (which I think is no later than 1870) doesn't have a grand facade to the garden, instead a mess of half levels, stair towers, kitchen wings and the like.

Yep - this was my initial thought too.

 

[teuchter]

The flag is another reason to suspect it's the front of the house. Unless it was some kind of RAF institutional building (temporary or otherwise) in which case maybe you can imagine a flag flying in the grounds at the back.

 

[snowy_again]

Cafe Provençal appears to have closed for good.

 

[colacubes]

Cafe Provençal appears to have closed for good.

Oh no That's a shame.

 

[editor]

Cafe Provençal appears to have closed for good.

I heard that it was going. The owners wanted to retire, I heard.

 

[Crispy]

Did a double-take on Palace Road the other day (at the top near the GP surgery)



Almost, but not quite,,,

 

[Jimbeau]

Almost, but not quite,,,

I forced myself to give this a break for a few days - but now it's time for a new theory....

It might be Alleyn Park in West Dulwich - down the bottom end where it meets the Paxton Green junction. It's not Herne Hill, but bear with me.

The road was laid out at the right time. (1850s - I checked my suspicions on the house being no later than 1870 by using the dating tool on www.bricksandbrass.co.uk) More about the building of the properties along the road here: South Croxted Road and Alleyn Park

Nearly all of the original houses are gone but most were still standing in 1944.

We can't be sure what they all looked like, but Pissarro painted a view of some of them across the fields in 1871. They begin to look quite promising.

Then there are the specifics of the design - which is very particular. Three stories - with twinned round-headed windows over 4-pane sashes over a hexagonal bay in the gabled wing. I've been using my daily government-sanctioned run to do a bit of exploring and nearly every house of this age and type just has one central window in the second floor gable end.

Now it gets interesting. No 38 is still there - built into Dulwich Prep School. Some of the details are a little different but the form and proportions are right. Don't be fooled by the left hand wing - it's a modern extension, as can be seen on Google Maps.

What's even more interesting is that the back of the house shows the same arrangement of windows and bay. So we could be standing behind these houses after all.

Now take a look at Numbers 3 and 4 Alleyn Park on the 1944 map. They have the same plan as No. 38. They're far enough apart. They're a mirror pair. They have long back gardens.

Georeferenced Maps - Map images - National Library of Scotland

maps.nls.uk

I'm not saying these are the houses for sure, but are we getting warmer?

 

[teuchter]

I forced myself to give this a break for a few days - but now it's time for a new theory....

It might be Alleyn Park in West Dulwich - down the bottom end where it meets the Paxton Green junction. It's not Herne Hill, but bear with me.

The road was laid out at the right time. (1850s - I checked my suspicions on the house being no later than 1870 by using the dating tool on www.bricksandbrass.co.uk) More about the building of the properties along the road here: South Croxted Road and Alleyn Park

Nearly all of the original houses are gone but most were still standing in 1944.

We can't be sure what they all looked like, but Pissarro painted a view of some of them across the fields in 1871. They begin to look quite promising.

Then there are the specifics of the design - which is very particular. Three stories - with twinned round-headed windows over 4-pane sashes over a hexagonal bay in the gabled wing. I've been using my daily government-sanctioned run to do a bit of exploring and nearly every house of this age and type just has one central window in the second floor gable end.

Now it gets interesting. No 38 is still there - built into Dulwich Prep School. Some of the details are a little different but the form and proportions are right. Don't be fooled by the left hand wing - it's a modern extension, as can be seen on Google Maps.

What's even more interesting is that the back of the house shows the same arrangement of windows and bay. So we could be standing behind these houses after all.

Now take a look at Numbers 3 and 4 Alleyn Park on the 1944 map. They have the same plan as No. 38. They're far enough apart. They're a mirror pair. They have long back gardens.

Georeferenced Maps - Map images - National Library of Scotland

maps.nls.uk

I'm not saying these are the houses for sure, but are we getting warmer?View attachment 212704View attachment 212706View attachment 212707

I think you could be onto something there, at least as far as the street is concerned.

 

[Crispy]

Oh wow, that is smoking hot IMO. The surviving building only has one chimney on the side, but there are two chimney breasts.
The fascia board has the same round ends with trefoils.

So I suppose it is the front gardens of 2 and 4 or maybe the big garden of no. 3 over the road

 

[teuchter]

From the sun direction it would have to be the back gardens of 2&4, no?

 

[teuchter]

This is the only aerial photo I've managed to find (1928) - frustratingly blurry.

EPW025252 ENGLAND (1928). Crystal Palace and Crystal Palace Park, Penge, 1928. This image has been produced from a damaged negative. | Britain From Above

www.britainfromabove.org.uk

 

[Jimbeau]

From the sun direction it would have to be the back gardens of 2&4, no?

It would. And the size of gardens works. But I’m still not convinced about us looking at the backs of the houses. The decorative little attic dormer window just feels more like it was designed for the street - and you can see from no.38 that there is a stair in the next bay to the gable and the dormer is at the front. But maybe our house has a back dormer and a different stair configuration. I’m not sure if we can see two little windows lighting a half landing?

Definitely can’t see a porch roof over the centre bay of the ground floor.

 

[editor]

Looks like something is on fire south of Brockwell Park...

 

[teuchter]

It would. And the size of gardens works. But I’m still not convinced about us looking at the backs of the houses. The decorative little attic dormer window just feels more like it was designed for the street - and you can see from no.38 that there is a stair in the next bay to the gable and the dormer is at the front. But maybe our house has a back dormer and a different stair configuration. I’m not sure if we can see two little windows lighting a half landing?

Definitely can’t see a porch roof over the centre bay of the ground floor.

I think there are some little half landing windows yes, and I think that makes an argument for it being the back.

I might opt for nos 34&36 rather than 2&4 though. The way 2&4 are drawn on the map, looks like the rear gable portion projects out further, and it also looks like they have side rather than rear garden doors. 34 and 36 seem to match 38 better.

Plus, the "ruins" and greenhouse shown in the back garden seem to be about where we would want them to be.



I wonder if an email to the Dulwich Prep school could produce any further info.