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Habermas on [post?] secular societies...

gorski

customised free radical
Following a few threads with a similar thematic:

http://www.signandsight.com/features/1714.html

Here is a part:

The descriptive account of a "post-secular society" – and the normative issue of how citizens of such a society should understand themselves

I cannot discuss in detail the controversy among sociologists concerning the supposed sonderweg of the secularized societies of Europe in the midst of a religiously mobilized world society. My impression is that the data collected globally still provides surprisingly robust support for the defenders of the secularization thesis.(8) In my view the weakness of the theory of secularization is due rather to rash inferences that betray an imprecise use of the concepts of 'secularization' and 'modernization'. What is true is that in the course of the differentiation of functional social systems, churches and religious communities increasingly confined themselves to their core function of pastoral care and had to renounce their competencies in other areas of society. At the same time, the practice of faith also withdrew into more a personal or subjective domain. There is a correlation between the functional specification of the religious system and the individualisation of religious practice.

However, as Jose Casanova correctly points out, the loss of function and the trend towards individualization do not necessarily imply that religion loses influence and relevance either in the political arena and the culture of a society or in the personal conduct of life.(9) Quite apart from their numerical weight, religious communities can obviously still claim a 'seat' in the life of societies that are largely secularized. Today, public consciousness in Europe can be described in terms of a 'post-secular society' to the extent that at present it still has to "adjust itself to the continued existence of religious communities in an increasingly secularized environment".(10) The revised reading of the secularization hypothesis relates less to its substance and more to the predictions concerning the future role of 'religion'. The description of modern societies as "post-secular" refers to a change in consciousness that I attribute primarily to three phenomena.

First, the broad perception of those global conflicts that are often presented as hinging on religious strife changes public consciousness. The majority of European citizens do not even need the presence of intrusive fundamentalist movements and the fear of terrorism, defined in religious terms, to make them aware of their own relativity within the global horizon. This undermines the secularistic belief in the foreseeable disappearance of religion and robs the secular understanding of the world of any triumphal zest. The awareness of living in a secular society is no longer bound up with the certainty that cultural and social modernisation can advance only at the cost of the public influence and personal relevance of religion.

Second, religion is gaining influence not only worldwide but also within national public spheres. I am thinking here of the fact that churches and religious organisations are increasingly assuming the role of "communities of interpretation" in the public arena of secular societies.(11) They can attain influence on public opinion and will formationby making relevant contributions to key issues, irrespective of whether their arguments are convincing or objectionable. Our pluralist societies constitute a responsive sounding board for such interventions because they are increasingly split on value conflicts requiring political regulation. Be it the dispute over the legalisation of abortion or voluntary euthanasia, on the bioethical issues of reproductive medicine, questions of animal protection or climate change – on these and similar questions the divisive premises are so opaque that it is by no means settled from the outset which party can draw on the more convincing moral intuitions.

Pushing the issue closer home, let me remind you that the visibility and vibrancy of foreign religious communities also spur the attention to the familiar churches and congregations. The Muslims next door force the Christian citizens to face up to the practice of a rival faith. And they also give the secular citizens a keener consciousness of the phenomenon of the public presence of religion.

The third stimulus for a change of consciousness among the population is the immigration of "guest-workers" and refugees, specifically from countries with traditional cultural backgrounds. Since the 16th century, Europe has had to contend with confessional schisms within its own culture and society. In the wake of the present immigration, the more blatant dissonances between different religions link up with the challenge of a pluralism of ways of life typical of immigrant societies. This extends beyond the challenge of a pluralism of denominations. In societies like ours which are still caught in the painful process of transformation into postcolonial immigrant societies, the issue of tolerant coexistence between different religious communities is made harder by the difficult problem of how to integrate immigrant cultures socially. While coping with the pressure of globalized labor markets, social integration must succeed even under the humiliating conditions of growing social inequality. But that is a different story.

Footnotes here mentioned:

(8) P. Norris & R. Ingelhart, Sacred and Secular. Religion and Politics Worldwide,(Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2004)

(9) J.Casanova, Public Religions in the Modern World, (Chicago, 1994)

(10) J. Habermas, Glauben und Wissen (Frankfurt: special edition of edition Suhrkamp, 2001), p. 13

(11) Francis Schüssler Fiorenza, The Church as a Community of Interpretation, in: D. Browning & F. Schüssler Fiorenza (eds.), Habermas, Modernity, and Public Theology, (New York: Crossroad, 1992), pp. 66-91

This text originally appeared in German in Blätter für deutsche und internationale Politik, in April 2008. It was initially written for a lecture which Jürgen Habermas gave on March 15 2007 at the Nexus Institute of the University of Tilberg, Netherlands
 
What weasel words from the pope's favourite "Marxist"!

Secularisation has nothing to do with predictions or the world becoming less religious. It is about removing the links between religion and the state.
 
He makes quite a few mistakes, already in the first paragraph of the article where he conveniently lumps together as "happened over one weekend" events that happened spreaded over months, and, at that, are merely reflection of minority groups in these countries.

Next for example this

(b) Die am schnellsten wachsenden religiösen Bewegungen wie die Pfingstler und die radikalen Muslime lassen sich am ehesten als „fundamentalistisch“ beschreiben.

makes clear he has absolutely no idea what he talks about. (and no, there is no such thing as "fundamentalist Muslim" either, thanks for noticing). Would the Pinkster movement and the Radicals among the Muslims have such a huge impact, the European religious landscape would be a lot different then what you have now. Radicals are the absolute fringe, and so in my experience are the Pinkster Churches.

He then goes on about Iran, in support of the US propaganda and then, frankly, I didn't bother to spend any more time on reading further.
Can't waste time on the same nonsense over and over again.

salaam.
 
That it is a US terminology invented to describe a certain approach in Christianity. It can't be transferred onto Muslims.

salaam.
 
He then goes on about Iran, in support of the US propaganda and then, frankly, I didn't bother to spend any more time on reading further.
Can't waste time on the same nonsense over and over again.

That's a very good point. All this hand wringing over religion is just a liberal response to the "post 9/11 world".

You would think that the idea that religion lies behind certain conflicts would be confined to some ignoramous mouthing off in the pub. Why is this sociology professor repeating these discredited cliches?

Why does he assume that church and state are now seperate (and which states is he talking about)? Has he no comment on tax exemptions and state funding for religious schools for example? Why does he gloss over democratic issues as if they don't exist? It looks like apologetics for dodgy politics. Its like that ghastly Anthony Giddens Third Way drivel.
 
Aldebaran, talk of "integrisme" in France predates US usage, I think. And why can't it be transferred to muslims? There are certain similarities between the Christiam and Muslim fundamentalists (one of each) that I know.
 
I met his daughter at a dinner party in London. She was very nice. Whatever you think about Jurgen, he managed to raise a great kid.
 
What weasel words from the pope's favourite "Marxist"!

Secularisation has nothing to do with predictions or the world becoming less religious. It is about removing the links between religion and the state.

Sit down, you failed miserably, as you understood nothing.:rolleyes: Back to the original text.:hmm: As many times as necessary...:p
 
It's all depressingly apolitical as usual I see. Boring Bourgeois Armchair Bollocks. He should stick to philosophy. Or preferably just retire.
 
Personally I reckon that major-league 'public intellectuals' hardly ever alter their intellectual course, they just die.

The funny thing with Habermas is that I like nearly all of his influences - the lebenswelt/symbolic system contradiction, all the bits of Durkheim, Wittgenstein etc etc, it's just that the whole is totally unappealing, like a pie filled with every ingredient you've ever liked. The metaphysical stuff is a waste of time obviously.
 
Personally I reckon that major-league 'public intellectuals' hardly ever alter their intellectual course, they just die instead.

The funny thing with Habermas is that I like nearly all of his influences - the lebenswelt/symbolic system contradiction, all the bits of Durkheim, Wittgenstein etc, it's just that the whole is unappealing like a pie filled with every ingredient you've ever liked. The metaphysical stuff is a waste of time obviously.

I've heard him described as the 'marxist max weber' (in reply to weber being called 'the bourgeois marx'). Maybe a 'thinker' who needed to be outside of academia to get some real non-reasonable edge in there.
 
Yeah he does, he just thinks he doesn't. Have you read Political philosophy at the close of metaphysics by Bernard Flynn?
 
Sit down, you failed miserably, as you understood nothing.:rolleyes: Back to the original text.:hmm: As many times as necessary...:p

I'll admit that I am reading into it as much as I can.:D The article is deathly dull if I don't. Was there a purpose to you posting it?
 
Never mind. Wrong forum altogether. Just not worth it, really... So few serious people here, willing and capable of any meaningful contribution. It's painful, sometimes, to see just how wrongly and wilfully so, people freely misinterpret anything they can... You wouldn't pass a single exam on my class - all would be sent to the original text for a serious re-reading and re-thinking... And I would fail you on such "evidence"!:(:hmm:
 
Never mind. Wrong forum altogether. Just not worth it, really... So few serious people here, willing and capable of any meaningful contribution. It's painful, sometimes, to see just how wrongly and wilfully so, people freely misinterpret anything they can... You wouldn't pass a single exam on my class - all would be sent to the original text for a serious re-reading and re-thinking... And I would fail you on such "evidence"!:(:hmm:

Habermas is just one of the philosophers certain people have a thing about but cannot really say why. I used to know someone who adored Habermas but I could never get anything out of him either. I find Habermas to be uninspiring and I would ignore him most of the time. However, I sometimes think I'm missing something.

Its a bit like the cool kids at school who always smoked. They don't seem to get anything from it. Its bad for their health and it cost them money. I'm usually pretty good at ignoring this "I'm missing something" feeling. But occasionally it gets the better of me. Pretend that I never posted on this thread.
 
Well, if you DO mean it - well done.:) It takes a bit of guts to say it. Admit it. And I mean it. [If you do.:cool:];)
 
On g's reccomendation I've looked up quite a few translations of various articles and transribed Q&As with Jurgen, and it all seems a bit dry really. I mean his societal vision is all very nice and peaceful (if very legalistic and rampacked with bureaicratic potential) but I could never imagine going out and fighting to defend it IYSWIM.
 
It's not about that, m8!

[Hormones into line, eeeeeaaasssyyy now...]

He inherited Adorno's chair and deemed it necessary to change the tune, as Adorno, he thought, hit a wall with his approach...

So, Habermas, under Arendt's guidance, engages everybody worth a mention... Anglo-Americans, included, which is much more than can be said, all too frequently, for Anglo-Americans, who hold themselves in some emperial position...:(

He's a true polyhistor, extremely well read, knows how to think, learns from others and by and large acknowledges it [with almost the sole exception of Arendt, whose 2 books he barely mentions... even though he learns his approach from her]...

Suit yerself, really... It's down to us individually. As Fichte says "Philosophy is not a piece of furniture to choose. We chose a Philosophy according to what kind of people/characters we are."

:cool:
 
Certainly the political re-emergence of Islam, politically synonymous with terrorism (for Sun readers) and the prevalence of Christianity in determining American election results has brought or should bring, into public secular-consciousness the importance of religion and thus to a degree, undermines a blind faith in the reasonableness of the proponents of a secular world view.
 
Aldebaran, talk of "integrisme" in France predates US usage, I think. And why can't it be transferred to muslims? There are certain similarities between the Christiam and Muslim fundamentalists (one of each) that I know.

Intégrisme is equally a word that came in use to describe Christians (this time it was Catholics, to make distinction between those who didn't went along with the ideals of the French Revolution).
It meant "intransigent respect for tradition" and only recently became used as if it was synonym with fanatism. Which it is not. Since I was a child I heard refer to Radicals a "les intégristes" by people who speak French (also those who are Muslims). Wrongly. (Then all Muslims are integrists.)

salaam.
 
Never mind. Wrong forum altogether. Just not worth it, really... So few serious people here, willing and capable of any meaningful contribution. It's painful, sometimes, to see just how wrongly and wilfully so, people freely misinterpret anything they can... You wouldn't pass a single exam on my class - all would be sent to the original text for a serious re-reading and re-thinking... And I would fail you on such "evidence"!:(:hmm:

You on the other hand wouldn't be allowed in any class I attended. You would first of all had to learn some manners.
So what serious reading of a text that already starts with deception to create the intended atmosphere, followed by obvious signs of ignorance and willingness to support a US agenda do you think possible?
Sorry, I don't waste my time on reading nonsense.
You did read the German text you link to, I assume? (and by the way, The Nexus Institute is at the University of Tilburg. Your referencing skills can use some polishing).

salaam.
 
Boy, you really are as vain as they come, quite immature...:rolleyes:

It's a C&P, FFS, from that link I posted, twat!:p:D
 
*Aldebaran in immature mode (not able to come close to the depths of gorski's knowledge and skills in the matter)*--->
00100.gif


*Aldebaran in normal Aldebaran mode, giving additional information to help gorski understand post 28:*

You linked to the text in German.

*and adding now a simplified question to help gorski understand intention as expressed in post 28:*

Did you read it?

salaam.
 
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