Griffin and BNP strategy

[nino_savatte]

Your projections are beyond a joke. Do understand what a projection is? I tend to regard as something close to self-harm.



I don't want you banned. I want you to post on topics you either have some konwledge of or at the very least interest you in some way.

If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. But don't start wailing when you get burnt.

I know perfectly well what "projection" is because you and your pals do it all the time.

Do us all a favour, shit-for-brains, keep your silly wee comments and your demands that I leave this thread to yourself. You're no skilled debater and you have shown yourself to be fundamentally dishonest...I guess it goes with the territory - eh?

 

[butchersapron]

Oh and your attempts at humour: don't leave your day job...which is what? Bog cleaner?

Now he's reaching for the classism...what a star!

 

[nino_savatte]

I have made no claims about my debating skills. I have made claims about your debating skills. You need to understand that I am not you. We are different people. I don't have your character flaws. I have my own character flaws thank you very much.



At the minute I'm not talking about anything. I'm dealing with the nino problem.



I've never made any attempts at humour with you.

Anyway last word time:

You're so full of shite that you'd make a manure merchant blush with embarrassment.

Catch yourself on, this is another one of your silly, mindless screeds.

Grow up, son.

 

[nino_savatte]

Now he's reaching for the classism...what a star!

What do you do? Sit around and wait for me to post?

You're another shithead who thinks he's a skilled debater but you're just a cheap shot artist with an overinflated ego.

 

[butchersapron]

What have you got against cleaners nino? Are they beneath you? Beneath your towering intellect? Do you think you'd get far trying to organise migrant workers many of whom are 'bog cleaners' with that approach?

 

[nino_savatte]

What have you got against cleaners nino? Are they beneath you? Beneath your towering intellect? Do you think you'd get far trying to organise migrant workers many of whom are 'bog cleaners' with that approach?

You must lead a really interesting life , torres, you sit around waiting for me to pop up and post. You're a proper tool.

How's the view under the bridge today?

 

[Knotted]

Now he's reaching for the classism...what a star!

Ironically enough, I have cleaned bogs for a living in the past, albeit only for a short while.

 

[butchersapron]

Ah, right we're back to me being a troll (it was trot the other day, then a troll again, then RA and so on) - and this from someone who has calculatedly set out to destroy thread after thread and any hope of serious adult debate on an issue they personally don't feel comfortable with and who has smeared poster after poster as racist (including a mod!) along the way - classic troll behaviour.

 

[nino_savatte]

Ironically enough, I have cleaned bogs for a living in the past, albeit only for a short while.

So have I...but that proves nothing.

 

[nino_savatte]

Ah, right we're back to me being a troll (it was trot the other day, then a troll again, then RA and so on) - and this from someone who has calculatedly set out to destroy thread after thread and any hope of serious adult debate on an issue they personally don't feel comfortable with and who has smeared poster after poster as racist (including a mod!) along the way - classic troll behaviour.

You're still pursuing this? Weak, very weak.

 

[Knotted]

So have I...but that proves nothing.

Agreed.

 

[nino_savatte]

Agreed.

I've also done a lot of other shitty jobs...so what? Would you do those jobs again? I doubt it. Shitty jobs that no Brit will touch are performed by immigrants and migrant workers. Who else is going to do this work? Unless you've created an army of robots to do those jobs, that is...

 

[Knotted]

I've also done a lot of other shitty jobs...so what? Would you do those jobs again? I doubt it. Shitty jobs that no Brit will touch are performed by immigrants and migrant workers. Who else is going to do this work? Unless you've created an army of robots to do those jobs, that is...

Hitler had similar ideas with his concentration camps. Get the unter-mensch to do the dirty work. I'm always appalled when I here this argument repeated.

 

[butchersapron]

So why did you have a go at them and suggest that they're somehow beneath you now? Whence comes this social chauvanism nino?

 

[nino_savatte]

Hitler had similar ideas with his concentration camps. Get the unter-mensch to do the dirty work. I'm always appalled when I here this argument repeated.

Quoi? Are you feeling well?

 

[nino_savatte]

torres
This message is hidden because torres is on your ignore list.

Lusty's calling you, you'd better toddle off back to him and give him a nice back rub.

I know what I'd like to give him and it isn't a back rub, I can tell you!

 

[audiotech]

MC sorry but are you dim or mischevious?

i have not anywhere at anytime argued for STATE immigration controls .. i have sought to get debate on how immigration CURRENTLY fits into neoliberalism and have alleged that it has been used to undermine wages and workers organisation.

i have further consistently said that i believe immigration controls are dangerous and simply are to discipline us all and that immigration controls do not control immigration anyway .. i do not believe in national/state borders .. but i do belive in the right of communities to decide who and how people shoud live in those communities

i HAVE argued that workers should not allow bosses to cut wages and jobs using any labour and that includes migrant labour .. and i have argued that workers should put pressure on bosses to employ locally as we have c3million unemployed .. and that any campaign to expose what is going on should be quiet clear that it is not the fault of migrants but of spiv and cowboy bosses .. andi have made it abundantly clear that i see this as part of a campaign to rebuild workers/peoples power at work and in communities with the am of fundamentally changing society progressively

and consistently i have argued that this wave of immigration shows the contempt the state/new labour etc have for all people, those here now and migrants. and that indeed it is racist .. get the blacks and slavs in to do our dirty work .. i have also consistently argues that we should be a society that takes in refugees

how on earth you can say this is in anyway close to a far right position is totally and utterly absurd .. i even started a thread to show this .. that the far right simply take a bourgois and racist position on immigration .. they are NOT against immigration but against non white immigration .. they do not even mention any of what i say about workers stopping bosses undercuting wages and unions .. letalone rebuilding unions!!!

and why i suggest you are dim or mischevious is i have pointed this out to you on countless occasions .. so why do ou keep repeating it?


apologies but i did not notice your reply re oldham .. i will look for it .. if you can remember where it is please tell me

I told 'em Oldham.

Let's look at the meat of your argument.

the right of communities to decide who and how people shoud live in those communities

Sounds fine, but one major problem here is that it ain't gonna happen under the present system. For the community to decide on these matters the first thing that they need to do is take power. Now, you are not calling for that are you? So, all I see you doing is coming out with an empty slogan, which fails far short of the possibility's you promise.

You then follow one empty slogan with another:

i HAVE argued that workers should not allow bosses to cut wages and jobs using any labour and that includes migrant labour .. and i have argued that workers should put pressure on bosses to employ locally

'Workers should not allow bosses to cut wages and jobs'? If only they had the luxury of that choice ffs. The reality is that bosses do this and it is only by organising with other workers against these attacks on conditions and pay that there is likely to be a reversal of the employers dictats. Arguing that 'workers should put pressure on bosses to employ locally' is both divisive and pits worker against worker.

Finally, of course it is racist to use the terms: "get the blacks and slavs in to do our dirty work", but no one has said that have they? It is also racist to believe that "the blacks and slavs" are only capable of doing that type of work. Which is clearly not the case.

 

[liberty123]

Advocates of migration always stress that east Europeans are coming to do the jobs we don't want to do and for low wages. It's the old argument for immigration, based on Guradian readers wanting cheap plumbers (the rest of us live in council/association houses, so don't pay for plumbers) and cheap au pairs etc while they're at the Opera.Well they may be happy to start off doing the crappy jobs or work for less than brits, but as Britain's experience of immigrants shows once they're given permanent citizenship they won't be happy to do crappy jobs or lower paid jobs anymore and they will soon have their own lobby groups campaigning for access to housing etc in competition with native Brits on this ridiculously over crowded little island.

 

[durruti02]

I told 'em Oldham.

Let's look at the meat of your argument.

the right of communities to decide who and how people shoud live in those communities

Sounds fine, but one major problem here is that it ain't gonna happen under the present system. For the community to decide on these matters the first thing that they need to do is take power. Now, you are not calling for that are you? So, all I see you doing is coming out with an empty slogan, which fails far short of the possibility's you promise.

You then follow one empty slogan with another:



'Workers should not allow bosses to cut wages and jobs'? If only they had the luxury of that choice ffs. The reality is that bosses do this and it is only by organising with other workers against these attacks on conditions and pay that there is likely to be a reversal of the employers dictats. Arguing that 'workers should put pressure on bosses to employ locally' is both divisive and pits worker against worker.

Finally, of course it is racist to use the terms: "get the blacks and slavs in to do our dirty work", but no one has said that have they? It is also racist to believe that "the blacks and slavs" are only capable of doing that type of work. Which is clearly not the case.

whoay!! hang on here .. wer eyou not a just saying my arguments were like those of the far right?????

and i replyed??? .. so don't go onto something else .. i have shown my arguments are NOT anywhere like those of the far right .. please acknowledge this and we can debate further what you posted here

 

[audiotech]

whoay!! hang on here .. wer eyou not a just saying my arguments were like those of the far right?????

and i replyed??? .. so don't go onto something else .. i have shown my arguments are NOT anywhere like those of the far right .. please acknowledge this and we can debate further what you posted here

Well let's have a look at a couple of your statements shall we:

...an immigrant family with a number of kids will get housed before a young local couple ..

Straight out of the BNP/Hodge school of thought.

...the reason for economic migration in the first place in a country with millions unemployed

Reminds me of the National Front when they argued: "3 million unemployed, 3 million blacks".

 

[becky p]

Have you noticed the way that he constantly calls anyone who doesn't accept his line of argument "ignorant" or "thick"? It's an auld deflective tactic.

Of course you are never guilty of that nino. You are well known for your ability to debate any issue in your very friendly style.

 

[becky p]

Straight out of the BNP/Hodge school of thought.

Do you think that some people will view your attempts to lump durruti02,the BNP and Margaret Hodge together as rather desperate?

 

[TremulousTetra]

Do you think that some people will view your attempts to lump durruti02,the BNP and Margaret Hodge together as rather desperate?

only is desperate as those who seek to lump SW with the BNP nationalists and liberals?

 

[durruti02]

only is desperate as those who seek to lump SW with the BNP nationalists and liberals?

sorry but who has done that? with liberalism yes ( freedom of movement IS classic liberalism) but lump in SW and BNP?? how and when?? anway good to see you back .. i liked what you said on tiscali!

 

[mk12]

...an immigrant family with a number of kids will get housed before a young local couple ..

Is this true? Is there any evidence for this?

 

[audiotech]

Do you think that some people will view your attempts to lump durruti02,the BNP and Margaret Hodge together as rather desperate?

No, it's to encourage debate.

 

[lights.out.london]

Hitler had similar ideas with his concentration camps. Get the unter-mensch to do the dirty work. I'm always appalled when I here this argument repeated.

Sadly, for the "subhumans" (Untermensch) there was no welfare state, no minimum wage, no free education or health care and little or no choice as to which 'camp' they were 'employed' at. Only the Hiwis had any choice (at all) in their duties - even then, it was work or die for the vast majority of them, particularly if they were posted to a Pioneer or SS battalion.

SMERSH and the NKVD took care of them [the 'Untermensch' who 'co-operated' with the Germans) as the People's Army rolled west.

 

[becky p]

No, it's to encourage debate.

You and nino seem desperate to avoid any kind of open debate.
One of the most annoying things is when people throw out frankly pathetic accusations of racism.
Is there really any point to an anti BNP campaign that insists anybody who has concerns about present day immigration policies, is as bad as the BNP?

 

[durruti02]

This is a thread about griffin and the direction he is taking the BNP .. when i started it i thought it wouldbe more general .. but it seems to be concentrating on housing .. so lets get what is right and wrong .. i am NOT a housing expert .. so nino ( who says he has worked in housing ) and others tell us .. what are the entitlement facts?? .. i have done some links below .. two from housing lawyers ... and some others more generally

and as far as i can see, immigrants can , while not immediately, claim housing entitlements. see also how many immigrants get leave to stay every year ( about 100k) .. and also how few A8 have claimed or been given social housing so far c20 a month ..

the question i ask MC and nino is .. are you saying immigrants ( not new ones but all .. including after 5 years) do NOT ever get housing??

as i have said countering the BNP with inaccurate figures will back fire ... saying immigrants do NOT get social housing is simply untrue


http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/archives/231

http://headoflegal.blogspot.com/2007/05/eu-citizens-social-housing-and-margaert.html

see table 626 particularly

http://england.shelter.org.uk/advice/advice-3172.cfm

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/hosb1204.pdf


edited to delete a table that i thought referred to area of origin but just referred to ethnicity ... which of course does not indicate whether recent migrant or not

 

[durruti02]

Is this true? Is there any evidence for this?

depends !! have they got leave to stay/settled status of which 100k a year get ? in which case yes .. if they are refugees .. yes .. if they are EU .. and working .. yes ( but not sure whether that includes e.g. french west africans or brazialian/portugese )

i am still unclear on whether if they haven't, but are homeless, they would do ..