Greek elections

[Pickman's model]

OK, perhaps you can prove me wrong but there are a couple of points to make here.

First, the link that you provided does not indicate the source and, given that it references a Greek newspaper as the recipient, would seem to suggest that it was Greek.

Second, that is very different from leaking a delta view of a contract under negotiation. A hell of a lot has been made about the "red ink" version of the latest bail-out that was returned to Greece but if you publish the actual documents under negotiation that have not been agreed, you can be fairly certain that the negotiations will not improve.

leaking can be a negotiation tactic.

 

[Diamond]

leaking can be a negotiation tactic.

When you're trying to get the deal through, leaking the confidential document that you are negotiating on is just about the worst tactic there is.

 

[Diamond]

In fact, it isn't really a tactic at all.

 

[Belushi]

http://newsthump.com/2015/07/07/gre...&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork

 

[trabant]

Syriza have been at this for 5 months, they must have known months ago that the kind of deal that Greece could live with in the long term was simply not on the cards. had they exited in - for example - April, they could have gone with a cushion of hard currency for imports and allowed the devaluing effect of the New Drachma to kick in for the summer season.

They didn't have the backing of the electorate for this. They could have run a referendum on it sure, but they would have certainly lost. The Greeks have repeatedly displayed their will to stay in.

and the endless media stories about Italy and its migrant problems - one of the few safe and desirable destinations in the Med.

Greece has a huge influx of migrants, with essentially slum camps popping up on many islands and a huge influx moving to Athens and ending up trapped in Greece.

In Lesbos right now

 

[Athos]

He did a bad job.

It looks like his office leaked delta views of negotiated documents while they were being negotiated.

There is no surer way to kill off talks than leak confidential information.

So, if I understand you, your criticism is that he did bad job negotiating? Apart from the alleged leak (which criticism could be leveled at other parties), what did he do wrong in the negotiations? What could he have done better? And, realistically, what would the outcome of better job negotiating have looked like?

 

[Casually Red]

Zut Alors!!

Le French are making surrender noises . They say they're going to bend over backwards to keep Greece in , and despite German insistence there can be no debt write off , Vall is saying " nothing is taboo ". That's the axis of evil officially split . Greek tactics just scored another result .

 

[Idris2002]

Zut Alors!!

Le French are making surrender noises . They say they're going to bend over backwards to keep Greece in , and despite German insistence there can be no debt write off , Vall is saying " nothing is taboo ". That's the axis of evil officially split . Greek tactics just scored another result .

I hope you're right. Because I'm smiling like a very smug cat right now.

Spoiler: smug cat

 

[Diamond]

So, if I understand you, your criticism is that he did bad job negotiating? Apart from the alleged leak (which criticism could be leveled at other parties), what did he do wrong in the negotiations? What could he have done better? And, realistically, what would the outcome of better job negotiating have looked like?

Behave like a narcissistic eeijit, leak the central documents that were being negotiated on a regular basis, lecture everyone in attendance, act out his brinkmanship game theory to no effect.

And what has this lead to - capital controls and an economy and country completely on the edge...

 

[Diamond]

He's an academic trying to be a politician - what a suprise, he's not very good at it!

 

[Athos]

Behave like a narcissistic eeijit, leak the central documents that were being negotiated on a regular basis, lecture everyone in attendance, act out his brinkmanship game theory to no effect.

And what has this lead to - capital controls and an economy and country completely on the edge...

So, had he not done those things, would the outcome have been different? What would it have looked like?

 

[butchersapron]

Unbelievably crude great men style analysis. In 2015.

 

[Casually Red]

" there is no taboo subject when it comes to Greek debt " . He said it .

 

[Diamond]

Interesting that he gets such favourable treatment here despite essentially being a spad.

 

[kebabking]

When you're trying to get the deal through, leaking the confidential document that you are negotiating on is just about the worst tactic there is.

this, i would suggest, is where the yawning chasm between commercial negotiations and politics shows itself.

leaking a document and allowing the other side to note your populations deep displeasure over the contents of that document is a very good way of showing your opposite number what can and cannot be achieved - if your negotiator says 'thats not possible', your opposite number might believe that to be a negotiating position, if however he see's your opposition, media and electorate go up the wall he knows that no, its not possible and he stops wasting time barking up a dead tree and spends his time more productively barking up a live tree.

 

[Diamond]

So, had he not done those things, would the outcome have been different? What would it have looked like?

Discussing stuff with you is like wading through treacle.

If he had not behaved the way that he did, would things have been different? Almost certainly yes. The Greeks would most probably not be entering their seventh business day of bank closures.

What would it have looked like? No-one can be sure - that's a counterfactual hypothetical - however it is difficult to see how it could be worse than now.

 

[pocketscience]

OK, perhaps you can prove me wrong but there are a couple of points to make here.

First, the link that you provided does not indicate the source and, given that it references a Greek newspaper as the recipient, would seem to suggest that it was Greek.

Second, that is very different from leaking a delta view of a contract under negotiation. A hell of a lot has been made about the "red ink" version of the latest bail-out that was returned to Greece but if you publish the actual documents under negotiation that have not been agreed, you can be fairly certain that the negotiations will not improve.

Sorry I thought I'd added this paul mason link "Leak - conter leak"
http://blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason-blog/leak-counterleak-achieve-greek-deal/3329
Trying to be too clever embedding links on a new phone.

 

[Lo Siento.]

Discussing stuff with you is like wading through treacle.

If he had not behaved the way that he did, would things have been different? Almost certainly yes. The Greeks would most probably not be entering their seventh business day of bank closures.

What would it have looked like? No-one can be sure - that's a counterfactual hypothetical - however it is difficult to see how it could be worse than now.

We can be pretty sure that the stakes, the power and the leverage on both sides would be exactly the same, can't we?

 

[Diamond]

this, i would suggest, is where the yawning chasm between commercial negotiations and politics shows itself.

leaking a document and allowing the other side to note your populations deep displeasure over the contents of that document is a very good way of showing your opposite number what can and cannot be achieved - if your negotiator says 'thats not possible', your opposite number might believe that to be a negotiating position, if however he see's your opposition, media and electorate go up the wall he knows that no, its not possible and he stops wasting time barking up a dead tree and spends his time more productively barking up a live tree.

OK, let's put to one side the idea about whether it gets you closer to where you want to be on a theoretical level - the main point in context here is that it is possibly the most aggressive maneouvre to try and pull when you have a very, very, very weak hand.

In particular, when you are negotiating with a whole bunch of other parties that have far, far stronger hands.

 

[Lo Siento.]

OK, let's put to one side the idea about whether it gets you closer to where you want to be on a theoretical level - the main point in context here is that it is possibly the most aggressive maneouvre to try and pull when you have a very, very, very weak hand.

In particular, when you are negotiating with a whole bunch of other parties that have far, far stronger hands.

Have you ever considered that maybe it's the strength of the hand and the interests at play rather than genius/idiot negotiators that is the key issue here?

 

[kebabking]

" there is no taboo subject when it comes to Greek debt " . He said it .

its the French, not - to be slightly stirring - anyone important. if it were the Dutch or the Germans you'd be correct, but its not, its the French, who have their own very selfish reasons for wanting the idea of not-brilliantly-performing countries being kicked out of the Euro banished forever.

Hollande is also fending of a domestic political problem within his own party - he's accused of going back on all the 'socialist' stuff he campaigned on, so he whips out a bit of solidarity (which, of course, he won't be putting serious money into..) and all is forgiven.

 

[pocketscience]

Discussing stuff with you is like wading through treacle.

If he had not behaved the way that he did, would things have been different? Almost certainly yes. The Greeks would most probably not be entering their seventh business day of bank closures.

What would it have looked like? No-one can be sure - that's a counterfactual hypothetical - however it is difficult to see how it could be worse than now.

Varoufakis must be kicking himself that he didn't come ask you how to conduct the negotiation right at the beginninig.

 

[Athos]

Discussing stuff with you is like wading through treacle.

If he had not behaved the way that he did, would things have been different? Almost certainly yes. The Greeks would most probably not be entering their seventh business day of bank closures.

What would it have looked like? No-one can be sure - that's a counterfactual hypothetical - however it is difficult to see how it could be worse than now.

I'm shocked that someone who claims to have studied history could posit such a crude analysis.

Clearly, the question of Varoufakis' tactics pales into insignificance against the background of material interests.

 

[Diamond]

Have you ever considered that maybe it's the strength of the hand and the interests at play rather than genius/idiot negotiators that is the key issue here?

Yes, the main issue is the eurozone being a very silly idea that was apparent to a few at the time (not me, I hasten to add), but proper negotiation is the art of the possible in the here and now.

After the dust settles you can try and learn some lessons but until you have agreement, you need to act with a little more pragmatism.

 

[Pickman's model]

proper negotiation is the art of the possible in the here and now.

politicks is the art of the possible .'. proper negotiation = politicks.

 

[gosub]

Leaks, came good retrospectively, when Juncker , President of the Commission, and supposed independent arbiter, stared down the lens of a TV camera and assured the people of Greece pensions weren't up for renegotiation

 

[Diamond]

I'm shocked that someone who claims to have studied history could posit such a crude analysis.

Clearly, the question of Varoufakis' tactics pales into insignificance against the background of material interests.

First, I admire the pomposity of your dismissal. Well done - its passive aggressive nature is well in keeping with your generally incoherent thrust.

Second, you do not make your point explicitly but only imply it in the arch, cowardly tradition of those who don't want to show their hand, again much in keeping.

 

[Lo Siento.]

Yes, the main issue is the eurozone being a very silly idea that was apparent to a few at the time (not me, I hasten to add), but proper negotiation is the art of the possible in the here and now.

After the dust settles you can try and learn some lessons but until you have agreement, you need to act with a little more pragmatism.

Varoufakis' predecessors were all very pragmatic, how much good did it do them?

 

[Athos]

First, I admire the pomposity of your dismissal. Well done - its passive aggressive nature is well in keeping with your generally incoherent thrust.

Second, you do not make your point explicitly but only imply it in the arch, cowardly tradition of those who don't want to show their hand, again much in keeping.

I'll make the point explicitly (and aggressively) if you'd prefer: you clearly don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about, again.

 

[MochaSoul]

“Never wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.”-- George Bernard Shaw