Greek elections

[pocketscience]

I suspect that "yes" will win narrowly. But in effect that means greece has been terrorised into yet more ruinous austerity and its government taken over by the troika - and a big chunk of the "yes" voters are more comfortably off and are voting to inflict more pain on the poorer half of society (see also - the UK general election).

So then what? Syriza government resigns? Fresh elections? What if syriza are the largest party again?

How long before serious political violence breaks out? And not just in greece - but also targetted against the euro-overlords?

Does germnay and the ECB really want a failed state and a humanitarian crises on their doorstep (and conscience) ?

I doubt they want a failed state. The seem fairly stuburn about their strategy: A state kept on a drip fed lifeline, generating pleny of bad news to keep the euro low, yet more cuts to slowly pay off the bad business the banks made for the next 40 years.

 

[existentialist]

I doubt they want a failed state. The seem fairly stuburn about their strategy: A state kept on a drip fed lifeline, generating pleny of bad news to keep the euro low, yet more cuts to slowly pay off the bad business the banks made for the next 40 years.

Given that the right to freedom of movement is pretty definitely enshrined in the whole EU thing, doesn't this just mean that Greek people will move elsewhere in the EU to find work rather than stay in the rump of a country operating with a German boot on its economic neck?

Or maybe that's a Good Thing - some more cheap labour to compete with the Romanians and Bulgarians and keep wages low and profits high?

 

[Sprocket.]

I hope the people of Hellas show the resilience that Metaxas did on October 28th 1940 and respond with a massive 'Ohi' and maybe July the 5th will become another day to be proud of in years to come.

 

[ska invita]

I suspect that "yes" will win narrowly

and then theres also the issue that if the yes win is very narrow (or a winning no vote for that matter) it wont feel legitimate and the decision will be undermined and fought against at every turn......... especially so as the question on the paper is fundamentally a cryptic one

 

[phildwyer]

Lei seca, in Portuguese, actually refers to prohibition (usually regarding alcoholic drinks such as Prohibition Era in the US).

ETA: It translates as Dry Law in eng.

Yep, ıts somethng they have ın Mexıco and other Latın Amerıcan countrıes. Means no drınkıng on electıon days. More honored ın the breach than ın the observance ıme...

 

[butchersapron]

and then theres also the issue that if the yes win is very narrow (or a winning no vote for that matter) it wont feel legitimate and the decision will be undermined and fought against at every turn......... especially so as the question on the paper is fundamentally a cryptic one

What decision though?

 

[phildwyer]

is that to stop crafty vote rigging going on by masters of shennanigans who find a citizen and buy his vote with booze

Partly, but mostly I thınk ıts supposed to prevent vıolence. Everyone ın Mexıco happıly ıgnores ıt anyway.

 

[phildwyer]

Ta. They're scrabbling around aren't they? Murderers.

I heard today for the first time in years Ilya Ehrenburg's text KIll:

That is an appallıng example of what happens when one group of people blames oppressıon on other groups of people. In realıty what we are faced wıth ıs the oppressıon of the entıre human race by the non-human, antı-human power known as Capıtal. Capıtal ıs the objectıfıed representatıon--and thus the opposıte--of human lıfe.

 

[Greebo]

That is an appallıng example of what happens when one group of people blames oppressıon on other groups of people. In realıty what we are faced wıth ıs the oppressıon of the entıre human race by the non-human, antı-human power known as Capıtal. Capıtal ıs the objectıfıed representatıon--and thus the opposıte--of human lıfe.

Who makes, spreads, and enables Capital? Humans.

So, if you want to tackle this at source... </derail, preferably to another thread, preferably another day too>

 

[J Ed]

That is an appallıng example of what happens when one group of people blames oppressıon on other groups of people. In realıty what we are faced wıth ıs the oppressıon of the entıre human race by the non-human, antı-human power known as Capıtal. Capıtal ıs the objectıfıed representatıon--and thus the opposıte--of human lıfe.

The separation of humanity into 'productive' and 'unproductive' peoples is chilling.

 

[phildwyer]

Who makes, spreads, and enables Capital? Humans.

So, if you want to tackle this at source... </derail, preferably to another thread, preferably another day too>

Its not really ırrelevant to thıs thread. The poınt ıs, there ıs no poınt ın blamıng "The Germans" or even Merkel for thıs sıtuatıon. All they are doıng ıs followıng the dıctates of Capıtal. And the ınterests of Capıtal are ındependent of and hostıle to the ınterests of the human beıngs whose actıvıty ıt represents.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

The separation of humanity into 'productive' and 'unproductive' peoples is chilling.

They could be housed in different sorts of homes, so that each could recognise each other and know their place....just an idea.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[ska invita]

What decision though?

exactly! the referendum's cryptic nature gives potential justification for all kinds of different decisions to be made, all of which will be vulnerable to the charge of being taken without a clear mandate - particularly so if the referendum is won by a tiny margin.

 

[Greebo]

They could be housed in different sorts of homes, so that each could recognise each other and know their place....just an idea.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

You've seen Brockwell Gate, have you? Gold spikes and real balconies at one end, sliver spikes and Juliet balconies the other. Where that isn't practical yet, perhaps richer people could use one set of doors and the could have "poor doors" for the rest? To make rich people feel even richer by contrast, of course.

 

[Greebo]

Its not really ırrelevant to thıs thread. The poınt ıs, there ıs no poınt ın blamıng "The Germans" or even Merkel for thıs sıtuatıon. All theyare doıng ıs followıng the dıctates of Capıtal, whıch are ındependent of and hostıle to the ınterests of the human beıngs whose actıvıty ıt represents.

No. You seem to assume that human beings are Capital's brainless puppets, devoid of free will. Not everyone does. There's always a choice, even when no visible option is palatable to you. Refusing to choose is also a choice.

 

[quiquaquo]

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/07/04/pers-j04.html

Rumblings of a coup.

 

[butchersapron]

WSWS always say everywhere is on the verge of a coup.

There's no need anyway, we're the colonel's now.

 

[DotCommunist]

exactly! the referendum's cryptic nature gives potential justification for all kinds of different decisions to be made, all of which will be vulnerable to the charge of being taken without a clear mandate - particularly so if the referendum is won by a tiny margin.

could you post the wording of the question on the ballot pls

 

[Patteran]

'This means that the Eurogroup as well as the ECB do not respect Greek sovereignty. We are back to the situation of the 1960s when Leonid Brezhnev was affirming the doctrine of the « limited sovereignty » of the Eastern countries in regard to the Soviet Union.'

That's a striking parallel - I don't know whether it stands up to scrutiny, or whether it's appealing because it's neat, tidy - but I like it. Athens 2015 as capitalism's Prague 68, utilising banks rather than tanks to demonstrate the limits of dissent.

 

[butchersapron]

Regardless of how this plays out (the result i mean, not the wider social processes) i think Syriza played a blinder by calling this referendum and putting the question out there on the agenda for europe - and i don't mean the eurogroup, or the commision or the ECB, i mean europe - in a very forceful way. of course they may have gone the mass route earlier, but they got there.

 

[quiquaquo]

WSWS always say everywhere is on the verge of a coup.

There's no need anyway, we're the colonel's now.

Don't flatter yourself, being a shill in a boiler room is a long way from being a colonel.

 

[butchersapron]

Odd.

Anyway, here's the KKE leaflet i picked up yesterday.

edit: ah, same text as here.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

WSWS always say everywhere is on the verge of a coup.

There's no need anyway, we're the colonel's now.

 

[butchersapron]

Come try my secret recipe iron-broom flavoured partidge.

 

[butchersapron]

Without a socialist revolution, in the next historical period at that, a catastrophe threatens the whole culture of mankind. The turn is now to the proletariat, i.e., chiefly to its revolutionary vanguard. The historical crisis of mankind is reduced to the crisis of the revolutionary leadership.

 

[J Ed]

Odd.

Anyway, here's the KKE leaflet i picked up yesterday.

edit: ah, same text as here.

They are still calling for their supporters to abstain, aren't they? The Graunid keeps saying that they are calling for a no vote

 

[butchersapron]

They are still calling for their supporters to abstain, aren't they? The Graunid keeps saying that they are calling for a no vote

Yeah, they want them to print off a thing from their site and shove that in the ballot box. So an active abstention i suppose.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

They are still calling for their supporters to abstain, aren't they? The Graunid keeps saying that they are calling for a no vote

Guardian has been full of shit in their reporting of this referendum, for the last couple of days especially.

 

[J Ed]

Guardian has been full of shit in their reporting of this referendum, for the last couple of days especially.

Yes, it's hard to know whether it's genuine ignorance (doubtful as Helena Smith is actually on the ground) or just standard no vote = spooky commies wooo!

 

[frogwoman]

When do the polls close?