MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
Takes me an hour to get to London and I couldn't leave before 3.
Friend of mine text me the TUC is organising something Mon eve though. Might make it to that instead.
Greek elections
- Thread starter ska invita
- Start date
Takes me an hour to get to London and I couldn't leave before 3.
Friend of mine text me the TUC is organising something Mon eve though. Might make it to that instead.butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Ta. They're scrabbling around aren't they? Murderers.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...is-live-referendum-sunday-vote-austerity.html
Greece crisis live: Germany suggests Greece could exit eurozone 'temporarily'
German finance minister floats idea of temporary Greek exit from the eurozone as Yanis Varoufakis, Greece's finance minister, accuses creditor powers of "terrorism"
11.23
Wolfgang Schaeuble, Germany's finance minister, has suggested that Greece's could exit the euro temporarily. He told Germany's top-selling red top:
Greece is a member of the eurozone. There's no doubt about that. Whether with the euro or temporarily without it: only the Greeks can answer this question. And it is clear that we will not leave the people in the lurch.
He also said the Greek government's actions suggested that they did not want to reform as he described the risk of contagion from an exit as "relatively small". He said:
The markets have reacted with restraint in the last few days. That shows that the problem is manageable.
I heard today for the first time in years Ilya Ehrenburg's text KIll:
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
This was bristol - i expect far more turned out to london stuff. I hope so anyway.Takes me an hour to get to London and I couldn't leave before 3.
Buckaroo
Donkey piss and tractors
Inglourious Eurobasterds.
MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...country-faces-crunch-referendum-10365916.html
http://www.demotix.com/news/7985758...r-square-show-solidarity-greece#media-7985681
Can't find much more.
And the Grauniad calls this a sober picture:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/02/opinion/dont-bet-on-syriza-alexis-tsipras-greece.html?_r=0
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Ta again.
The guardian have had Helena Smith watching Skai TV (the voice of the untaxed unlicensed greek masters) and allowing her to report what they say as well...reportage.
MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
I just find funny that their sober calculations never take into account people can't eat submarines and stuff like that.
MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
Yes, I am terrified of a yes vote for just that reason. Not just out of concern for the Greek people, although there is that, but a yes vote really would show that you can shovel shit on a country for five years and then just scare them back into obedience after they have the temerity to democratically elect a government which actually represents their interests.
MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
I saw a pic of anarchists marching peacefully through wealthier suburbs in Athens, last night, under a banner:
Yes campaign document leak https://www.facebook.com/solidaritywithgreece/posts/1683340338553109:0
MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
Paul Mason describing financial warfare
http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...urvive-the-financial-carpet-bombing?CMP=fb_gu
http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...urvive-the-financial-carpet-bombing?CMP=fb_gu
pocketscience
Well-Known Member
Graun now reporting it too
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/04/greek-referendum-germany-no-vote
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Thank you again. I think that doc is rubbish though.
I think we're going to see wealthier suburbs marching with anarchists soon.
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
For what? Against what?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Just a silly turnaround of the post above. Not a real prediction.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
note: radical left
parties imposing austerity that actually kills people- just business. Fuck the guardian
parties imposing austerity that actually kills people- just business. Fuck the guardian
I'm not even sure how Helena Smith gets away with reporting this shit to the BBC (as biased as they are).
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
I'd love to know what the talks with russia went like. I think putin made an offer that could not be accepted (access to your ports, a few bases here and there).
here's hoping tomorrow the greeks vote to fuck these austerity packages right off. How much more are they supposed to endure with 'economic reform' as bandied about by the IMF. It really twists my mind- these people must know what they are doing, they must know what they demand will end in impoverishment, suicides and death. How can they do it, have they not one shred of decency. Have they no thought to the wider political future of an even more broken greece. Its just beyond mental. The only logic I can see for such intransigence is the idea that if greece goes, the project is fatally wonded. The made up money doesn't matter, if it was a bank in trouble they'd bend over backwards to help them out. This is just naked, sadistic attack.
I don't even understand what the people in charge of countries and banks get out of it. You've risen to the top of the field by starting ahead of everyone else, you'll never in your life suffer hardship other than personal tragesies of mortality in the family, so why. Why do this
here's hoping tomorrow the greeks vote to fuck these austerity packages right off. How much more are they supposed to endure with 'economic reform' as bandied about by the IMF. It really twists my mind- these people must know what they are doing, they must know what they demand will end in impoverishment, suicides and death. How can they do it, have they not one shred of decency. Have they no thought to the wider political future of an even more broken greece. Its just beyond mental. The only logic I can see for such intransigence is the idea that if greece goes, the project is fatally wonded. The made up money doesn't matter, if it was a bank in trouble they'd bend over backwards to help them out. This is just naked, sadistic attack.
I don't even understand what the people in charge of countries and banks get out of it. You've risen to the top of the field by starting ahead of everyone else, you'll never in your life suffer hardship other than personal tragesies of mortality in the family, so why. Why do this
MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
She replied to them, "to even things out, I'd like to say 'Nai', which means 'Yes' in Greek"." - and she looked like the cat who got the cream as she said it.
I hope tomorrow, the Greeks teach her a mutti of a lesson.
ETA: if only to match the [German] mother of all debts.
MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
The Express reports not too badly on protests here in Britain:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/sunda...reets-in-Britain-to-support-Greek-NO-campaign
http://www.express.co.uk/news/sunda...reets-in-Britain-to-support-Greek-NO-campaign
Lurdan
old wave
Quick and dirty translation of a leaflet by the Greek anarchist group Kath'odon.
Referendum: do you want the bosses to exploit us, or not?
After a lenthy period of negotiations with its European partners, the SYRIZA-ANEL coalition has decided to resort to a referendum. This is of course a very important issue which directly concerns our lives and will have a very direct impact upon them. The government has chosen direct democracy, addressing the whole of society. This is an honest, ethical and democratic political choice, since such an important decision must be taken by all the people who live in Greece. Supporting the "NO" will create the conditions for the development of a radical movement and help improve the living conditions of our class. Is that correct? By no means!
Referendum - direct democracy?
As regards the "referendum" and its links to direct democracy; whoever poses a question to which the answer is "yes or no", poses at the same time the limits to discussion (and therefore the limits to the decision) and also the framework for the political management of the result. The questions posed by "those from above" have nothing to do with the processes of direct democracy. For example, if it was up to us to ask the question, we would say: "Do you want the bosses to exploit us, or not? Do you want the government that imposes taxes on us in order to finance the banks, the capitalists and their bureaucratic mechanisms, or not? Do you want someone other than ourselves to decide our lives, yes or no?" That is a matter of questions which prioritize our own needs and desires, and that don't contribute to the creation of a nationalist and interclassist unity which is to give it's opinion on the "salvation of the fatherland" against wicked "foreign speculators and imperialists". It's about questions that do not promote capitalism and statism as a "one-way street" ...
A process falls within direct democracy where those who participate do so in a coherent and egalitarian way in order to self-manage their lives, not when a government decides from time to time "to consult the people" for their own purposes. Direct democracy is meaningless if it is disconnected from freedom, equality and solidarity, if it is disconnected from libertarian communism and anarchy. The public response of bosses and wage slaves, of rulers and dominated, to a question posed by the Government, reminds us of the common response of wolves and sheep to the question of the evening meal.
As for the results of the referendum,
When the government asks us whether we prefer its memorandum or that of its creditors, any response on the part of our class (the class of the exploited and oppressed) will turn against us. By means of this referendum, the government that was elected five months ago wants to make our class complicit in the new measures to be taken against us, complicit in the decisions that the Government will take the very next day, whatever they may be. That shared responsibility is a barrier to the creation of a radical movement which is able to challenge the choices of the ruling class. As for the outcome of the referendum, the government will either use it to negotiate with its partners and at the same time obtain a social consensus (for a "bad but necessary agreement"), or it will use it in order to avoid responsibilty for an eventual exit from Monetary Union (the Euro). In either case, our class will continue to suffer the consequences of this capitalist and statist restructuring. Participation in the referendum constitutes our acceptance of these facts.
As for the difference between the two options defined by the Government; YES means full acceptance of the capitalist politics of the memorandums. NO means social legitimation of the Greek government so that it continues to negotiate with the creditors of the Greek state in order to decide how many billions will be saved by the measures that it will impose on our class. It means deciding to accept a slightly different politics of austerity.
Whatever the outcome of the referendum, its consequences will affect our class. A new memorandum, whether from Europe or from the Left, means that exploitation and oppression will be intensified. As long as State and capitalism exist, with the euro or with the drachma, the impoverishment of our class will continue and a very small section of society will continue to decide for us and exercise its authority.
As far as we are concerned,
We refuse on principle to participate in any electoral process and respond to a dilemma imposed by the State, because for us this process legitimises power and reproduces false hopes about a better management of the State; a State whose existence perpetuates, reproduces and creates divisions. Syriza's attitude over the past five months towards the minority currents, has once again confirmed that the state continues to operate even if the manager changes, even if the manager is left-wing and progressive. Just like neo-liberalism, social democracy (which is advocated by Syriza in theory) is hostile to any movements it does not control, attempting to integrate them where it doesn't directly repress them.
So we do not try to convince ourselves that participation in the referendum, and in the "proud and national" NO proposed by Syriza, might alter the conditions of class struggle in our favor or contribute to building a radical movement. Those who choose to crawl "for tactical reasons" behind the dilemmas imposed by the state, by directly or indirectly supporting the NO, directly support the unconditional surrender of our class to the Left's memorandum.
That said, we understand that within the capitalist system there are internal conflicts and that the eventual victory of the YES would help the advance of modern totalitarianism (as promoted by the European States). However, supporting (even indirectly) the section of the ruling class which promotes an alternative capitalist management of the crisis of the system, can in no way create the conditions for the development of a truly radical social and class movement with a revolutionary perspective. It simply enables the replacement of the ruling class. Anyone who thinks he can use the weapons of the class enemy for the benefit of our movement (for example the current referendum), is mistaken. Those who rushed to vote for Syriza in the last election with this perspective in their minds were lamentably wrong.
As for a possible exit of Greece from the EU
The EU is a transnational center of power with its own army and currency which tends towards becoming a hyper-federal state. The bourgeoisie of the nation-states that make up the EU do not always have common interests. That is reflected in all the conflicts within it, as in the current conflict. Similarly, the interest of some Greek capitalist's lies in supporting the NO in the referendum (which partly explains the attitude of the Nazi Golden Dawn), while the interest of another (and now probably stronger) element lies in supporting the YES. It is an internal conflict of the system that has nothing to do with our class interests and their promotion. For our part, as anarchists we are against any state, whether national or transnational and we fight for its destruction. We stand in solidarity with anyone in our class who struggles for the destruction of the state. In this context, we are also fighting against the EU. The question of whether or not to be in the EU has no meaning for us. So for us the issue of being inside or outside the EU makes little sense. We seek the destruction of the EU and of the state apparatuses that comprise it, including the State which oppresses us most directly, the Greek State.
As anarchists we have never adopted the theory of stages which first prioritizes national liberation and anti-imperialist struggle and then later the socialist revolution. So, the slogan "exit the EU" is alien to us; for it assumes the existence of a sovereign nation-state (social democratic or workers) which realises this exit and which then hitches itself to the wagon of another "great power".
The enemy lies in the Eurozone. And outside it?
Money is an instrument of political economy in the hands of a State and a very important parameter for capitalist surplus-value. We consider that the dilemmas of choosing between "euro or drachma" and "inside or outside the EU" are artificial. With the euro there will be the continuation of exploitation and oppression by the State and by that part of capital which has invested in the Greek territory. With the drachma there will be the continuation of exploitation and oppression by the State and by a different section of capitalists, which withdrew their capital waiting to invest in a country with a devalued currency, waiting to buy at an advantageous price. Beyond money, as long as our class refuses to realise its collective strength, as long as it refuses to fight against the bosses and the state, as long as it refuses to take its life in its own hands, as long as it refuses to pose the real and only question, of capitalism and statism or social revolution, our lives will continue to become impoverished.
We resist the impoverishment of our lives, we fight for a Europe (and a world) without borders, without classes, without capitalism. A Europe (and a world) based on solidarity between human beings, freely federated freely in communes, in relations of freedom and equality.
Abstention from the referendum.
Posing our own questions, giving our own answers.
For the social revolution, for libertarian communism, for anarchy.
After a lenthy period of negotiations with its European partners, the SYRIZA-ANEL coalition has decided to resort to a referendum. This is of course a very important issue which directly concerns our lives and will have a very direct impact upon them. The government has chosen direct democracy, addressing the whole of society. This is an honest, ethical and democratic political choice, since such an important decision must be taken by all the people who live in Greece. Supporting the "NO" will create the conditions for the development of a radical movement and help improve the living conditions of our class. Is that correct? By no means!
Referendum - direct democracy?
As regards the "referendum" and its links to direct democracy; whoever poses a question to which the answer is "yes or no", poses at the same time the limits to discussion (and therefore the limits to the decision) and also the framework for the political management of the result. The questions posed by "those from above" have nothing to do with the processes of direct democracy. For example, if it was up to us to ask the question, we would say: "Do you want the bosses to exploit us, or not? Do you want the government that imposes taxes on us in order to finance the banks, the capitalists and their bureaucratic mechanisms, or not? Do you want someone other than ourselves to decide our lives, yes or no?" That is a matter of questions which prioritize our own needs and desires, and that don't contribute to the creation of a nationalist and interclassist unity which is to give it's opinion on the "salvation of the fatherland" against wicked "foreign speculators and imperialists". It's about questions that do not promote capitalism and statism as a "one-way street" ...
A process falls within direct democracy where those who participate do so in a coherent and egalitarian way in order to self-manage their lives, not when a government decides from time to time "to consult the people" for their own purposes. Direct democracy is meaningless if it is disconnected from freedom, equality and solidarity, if it is disconnected from libertarian communism and anarchy. The public response of bosses and wage slaves, of rulers and dominated, to a question posed by the Government, reminds us of the common response of wolves and sheep to the question of the evening meal.
As for the results of the referendum,
When the government asks us whether we prefer its memorandum or that of its creditors, any response on the part of our class (the class of the exploited and oppressed) will turn against us. By means of this referendum, the government that was elected five months ago wants to make our class complicit in the new measures to be taken against us, complicit in the decisions that the Government will take the very next day, whatever they may be. That shared responsibility is a barrier to the creation of a radical movement which is able to challenge the choices of the ruling class. As for the outcome of the referendum, the government will either use it to negotiate with its partners and at the same time obtain a social consensus (for a "bad but necessary agreement"), or it will use it in order to avoid responsibilty for an eventual exit from Monetary Union (the Euro). In either case, our class will continue to suffer the consequences of this capitalist and statist restructuring. Participation in the referendum constitutes our acceptance of these facts.
As for the difference between the two options defined by the Government; YES means full acceptance of the capitalist politics of the memorandums. NO means social legitimation of the Greek government so that it continues to negotiate with the creditors of the Greek state in order to decide how many billions will be saved by the measures that it will impose on our class. It means deciding to accept a slightly different politics of austerity.
Whatever the outcome of the referendum, its consequences will affect our class. A new memorandum, whether from Europe or from the Left, means that exploitation and oppression will be intensified. As long as State and capitalism exist, with the euro or with the drachma, the impoverishment of our class will continue and a very small section of society will continue to decide for us and exercise its authority.
As far as we are concerned,
We refuse on principle to participate in any electoral process and respond to a dilemma imposed by the State, because for us this process legitimises power and reproduces false hopes about a better management of the State; a State whose existence perpetuates, reproduces and creates divisions. Syriza's attitude over the past five months towards the minority currents, has once again confirmed that the state continues to operate even if the manager changes, even if the manager is left-wing and progressive. Just like neo-liberalism, social democracy (which is advocated by Syriza in theory) is hostile to any movements it does not control, attempting to integrate them where it doesn't directly repress them.
So we do not try to convince ourselves that participation in the referendum, and in the "proud and national" NO proposed by Syriza, might alter the conditions of class struggle in our favor or contribute to building a radical movement. Those who choose to crawl "for tactical reasons" behind the dilemmas imposed by the state, by directly or indirectly supporting the NO, directly support the unconditional surrender of our class to the Left's memorandum.
That said, we understand that within the capitalist system there are internal conflicts and that the eventual victory of the YES would help the advance of modern totalitarianism (as promoted by the European States). However, supporting (even indirectly) the section of the ruling class which promotes an alternative capitalist management of the crisis of the system, can in no way create the conditions for the development of a truly radical social and class movement with a revolutionary perspective. It simply enables the replacement of the ruling class. Anyone who thinks he can use the weapons of the class enemy for the benefit of our movement (for example the current referendum), is mistaken. Those who rushed to vote for Syriza in the last election with this perspective in their minds were lamentably wrong.
As for a possible exit of Greece from the EU
The EU is a transnational center of power with its own army and currency which tends towards becoming a hyper-federal state. The bourgeoisie of the nation-states that make up the EU do not always have common interests. That is reflected in all the conflicts within it, as in the current conflict. Similarly, the interest of some Greek capitalist's lies in supporting the NO in the referendum (which partly explains the attitude of the Nazi Golden Dawn), while the interest of another (and now probably stronger) element lies in supporting the YES. It is an internal conflict of the system that has nothing to do with our class interests and their promotion. For our part, as anarchists we are against any state, whether national or transnational and we fight for its destruction. We stand in solidarity with anyone in our class who struggles for the destruction of the state. In this context, we are also fighting against the EU. The question of whether or not to be in the EU has no meaning for us. So for us the issue of being inside or outside the EU makes little sense. We seek the destruction of the EU and of the state apparatuses that comprise it, including the State which oppresses us most directly, the Greek State.
As anarchists we have never adopted the theory of stages which first prioritizes national liberation and anti-imperialist struggle and then later the socialist revolution. So, the slogan "exit the EU" is alien to us; for it assumes the existence of a sovereign nation-state (social democratic or workers) which realises this exit and which then hitches itself to the wagon of another "great power".
The enemy lies in the Eurozone. And outside it?
Money is an instrument of political economy in the hands of a State and a very important parameter for capitalist surplus-value. We consider that the dilemmas of choosing between "euro or drachma" and "inside or outside the EU" are artificial. With the euro there will be the continuation of exploitation and oppression by the State and by that part of capital which has invested in the Greek territory. With the drachma there will be the continuation of exploitation and oppression by the State and by a different section of capitalists, which withdrew their capital waiting to invest in a country with a devalued currency, waiting to buy at an advantageous price. Beyond money, as long as our class refuses to realise its collective strength, as long as it refuses to fight against the bosses and the state, as long as it refuses to take its life in its own hands, as long as it refuses to pose the real and only question, of capitalism and statism or social revolution, our lives will continue to become impoverished.
We resist the impoverishment of our lives, we fight for a Europe (and a world) without borders, without classes, without capitalism. A Europe (and a world) based on solidarity between human beings, freely federated freely in communes, in relations of freedom and equality.
Abstention from the referendum.
Posing our own questions, giving our own answers.
For the social revolution, for libertarian communism, for anarchy.
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
I suspect that "yes" will win narrowly. But in effect that means greece has been terrorised into yet more ruinous austerity and its government taken over by the troika - and a big chunk of the "yes" voters are more comfortably off and are voting to inflict more pain on the poorer half of society (see also - the UK general election).
So then what? Syriza government resigns? Fresh elections? What if syriza are the largest party again?
How long before serious political violence breaks out? And not just in greece - but also targetted against the euro-overlords?
Does germnay and the ECB really want a failed state and a humanitarian crises on their doorstep (and conscience) ?
So then what? Syriza government resigns? Fresh elections? What if syriza are the largest party again?
How long before serious political violence breaks out? And not just in greece - but also targetted against the euro-overlords?
Does germnay and the ECB really want a failed state and a humanitarian crises on their doorstep (and conscience) ?
