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Greek elections

While Kliman is criticising underconsumption theories of capitalism and crises he is also criticising the policy solution that these theories suggest: redistributing income away from the rich, in effect in the end from capital to labour, as is being proposed by some opponents of the current austerity and rather timidly by Syriza. In the final chapter of his book The Failure of Capitalist Production he is quite explicit that this won't work and could have the opposite effect:
This bit of historical analysis should help make it clear that, when push comes to shove, working people's gains are not compatible with the continued functioning of the capitalist system. The reason why they are not compatible is that capitalism is a profit-driven system. So what is good for capitalism - food for the system, as distinct from what is good for the majority of people living under it—is high profits, not low profits. Higher pay for workers cuts into profits, as do increases in corporate income taxes to fund social programs, a shorter work week, health and safety regulations in the work place, and so on. There is no solution to this dilemma within the confines of the capitalist system. (....)
If my argument is sound, what are the consequences? Well, under capitalism, a new economic boom requires the restoration of profitability, bur downward redistribution of income will reduce profitability. It will therefore tend to destabilize capitalism even further. It might trigger renewed panic in the world's financial markets, and who knows what will happen then? In this way, or by causing investment spending to fall, downward redistribution could lead to a deep recession, even a depression.
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He then goes on to raise a prospect which I think you did too but which I think is exaggerated:
And because progressive policies wii! have failed, again, to make capitalism work better—for itself—the stage will have been set for other people and other ideas to come along and fix the mess. Even fascism might become a serious option, as it was in Europe during the Great Depression.
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I don't think fascism will be the result of the inevitable failure of a Syriza government to do more than mitigate austerity in Greece a little, if only because the economic policies of parties of the populist right are not all that different from those of the populist left.
 
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/03/us-eurozone-greece-germany-idUSKBN0KC0HZ20150103

(Reuters) - The German government believes that the euro zonewould now be able to cope with a Greece exit if that proved to be necessary, Der Spiegel news magazine reported on Saturday, citing unnamed government sources.

Both Chancellor Angela Merkel and Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble believe the euro zone has implemented enough reforms since the height of the regional crisis in 2012 to make a potential Greece exit manageable, Der Spiegel reported.

"The danger of contagion is limited because Portugal and Irelandare considered rehabilitated," the weekly news magazine quoted one government source saying.

In addition, the European Stability Mechanism (ESM), the euro zone's bailout fund, is an "effective" rescue mechanism and was now available, another source added. Major banks would be protected by the banking union.

The German government in Berlin could not be reached for comment.

It is still unclear how a euro zone member country could leave the euro and still remain in the European Union, but Der Spiegel quoted a "high-ranking currency expert" as saying that "resourceful lawyers" would be able to clarify.

According to the report, the German government considers a Greece exit almost unavoidable if the leftwing Syriza opposition party led by Alexis Tsipras wins an election set for Jan. 25.
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cynicaleconomy said:
Once again, this simply isn't true. How on earth can you say that the NHS does not produce anything, or that education doesn't? What exactly is your definition of 'production' in this situation? Both of these sectors produce far more value for society than any other sector I can think of. Without them much of the private sector wouldn't even be possible.
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Education, health care, etc are useful, very useful, services but that does not mean that the resources to provide them don't come from the material wealth produced in the productive sector. Even the GDP calculation accepts that they don't add any additional value, but only counts what they cost. You are right of course that by enhancing the productive capacity of those who do produce the material wealth of society they do contribute indirectly to increasing it.
cynicaleconomy said:
The point I'm getting at is that the state and market are not two, independent entities in a host-parasite relationship. The relationship between them is one of symbiosis. The market only came into existence because of heavy state intervention in the form of the acts of enclosure, etc; it continues to exist in its current form because the state issues the currency that oils its cogs, amongst other things. The private sector is incapable of sustaining itself without government 'intervention'. I use inverted commas because its not really intervention - state and market are one and the same. Public sector spending is private sector income and vice versa.
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I agree with all of what you say here except the last sentence (there is not, never has been and never can be a "free market economy"). Public sector spending is in the end a transfer of income (through taxation, borrowing and currency inflation) from one part of the "private sector" to another.
cynicaleconomy said:
The situation of the late 70s is in no way comparable to what is happening now. The problem then was one of a supply-side shock, i.e. the oil crises of the early 70s that triggered a wage-price spiral. Extra injections of money into the system in that era of course exacerbated that inflation because it increased spending power in a period when productive capacity had been decimated by the increase in price of oil. The situation we face to today is one of vast underutilisation of resources and, as such deflationary pressures. The problem we now face is practically the reverse of the 70s, and the solution is likewise drastically different.
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I don't see the situation in the 1970s as being the opposite of today. What happened in the early 70s was that the post-war boom came to an end. It was an economic downturn, just like in 1929 and in 2008, with unemployment begining to rise which is a sign of the under-utilisation of resources as today. Or are you really saying that the rising unemployment resulted from a decrease in productive capacity? Also, your analysis seems to be saying that so-called "Reaganism". "Thatcherism", "neo-liberalism" was the right policy for the time and the Callaghan and Mitterrand were mistaken to have tried the policies then that you say are appropriate today. Which can't be what you mean, can it?
 
Just over 1 week to go before the 'snap' GE precipitated by the (December 2014) failure to elect a new president. Will Syriza get the 151 needed for a majority and 'light the blue touch-paper' of the EZ?

Polling suggests that they are consistently around or about the level of popular vote required to get near to a majority....

ElectionMonthlyAverageGraphGreece2015_zps005e329c.png

Syriza in pink and ND in blue.

Implications, implications...
 
...and Putin's punt...

BERLIN, January 16. /TASS/. Russia may lift its ban on food imports from Greece in the event it quits the European Union, Russian Minister of Agriculture Nikolai Fyodorov told a news conference in Berlin on Friday.

Fyodorov is leading an official Russian delegation to the International Green Week public exhibition for the food, agriculture, and gardening industry.

“If Greece has to leave the European Union, we will build our own relations with it, the food ban will not be applicable to it,” he said.
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He certainly knows the buttons to press to wind up the Euro-bankers.
 
If Syriza win - how badly will the ECB/germans etc want to punish the greek people? - esp with the spanish elections coming up as well.
 
Kaka Tim said:
If Syriza win - how badly will the ECB/germans etc want to punish the greek people? - esp with the spanish elections coming up as well.
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Bit of a no-win for the Germans/euro-bankers...not righting off some of the Greek debt would see Syriza threaten the whole EZ project...once the speculators sense the blood of a 'reversible' situation, they'd be after the next of the PIGS and take them out, one by one. OTOH, if they play ball with Syriza and gift them a life, they'll be a number of other EZ austerity victim states that will queuing up to ask for their jubilee as well...breaking the ECB/German coffers. Popcorn time.
 
..and only 2 days to go before Draghi has to tell the markets whether it 0 or 0.5 or 1.0tr QE.
 
So Draghi says he's going to give the euro-banks the equivalent of 0.5 of the entire Greek economy every month...but Greece will get nought if the vote for the wrong outfit. Subtle.
 
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/01/22/uk-greece-election-polls-idUKKBN0KV21020150122

Four surveys on Thursday showed Syriza widening its lead over Prime Minister Antonis Samaras's conservatives with just over a day of campaigning left. Samaras holds his final election rally on Friday.

A poll by Metron Analysis to be published on Friday showed Syriza's lead over the New Democracy party growing to 5.3 points from 4.6 points.

Syriza would take 36 percent of the vote, putting it on the verge of an outright victory, the poll showed.

A second poll, by Rass, showed Syriza leading by 4.8 points,

while a third poll by GPO for Mega TV showed Syriza with a 6 point lead, up from a 4 point lead in a previous poll.

A fourth poll by Marc for Alpha TV showed Syriza was ahead with a 6.2 point lead, up from a 3.2 point lead in a previous poll.
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Sky News had a very good package on earlier about Greece, the effects of this brutal austerity regime, etc, one part was just heartbreaking and probably defines what is happening to the Greeks in humanitarian terms. The son of the disabled elderly and highly vulnerable woman explained that his mother was totally reliant on a ventilator to breath. The electricity was cut of by the utility company to their home because her son could not afford to pay the sum of 800 Euro's as a result his mother died.:(:mad:
 
Interesting report from (Antarsya supporting) RS21 of the recent Greek Solidarity meeting -http://rs21.org.uk/2015/01/20/greek-elections-report-from-greece-solidarity-meeting/
 
Kaka Tim said:
Anyone know when we would get the results?
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there'll be a basic result very quickly, as the topline party votes are counted. But the precise make-up of the last few seats, and exactly which individuals fill them, can take days.
 
I thought this was interesting, but wondered where I'd find Greek activist perspectives rather than a Guardian journo's.
The clinics in turn are part of a far larger and avowedly political movement of well over 400 citizen-run groups – food solidarity centres, social kitchens, cooperatives, “without middlemen” distribution networks for fresh produce, legal aid hubs, education classes – that has emerged in response to the near-collapse of Greece’s welfare state, and has more than doubled in size in the past three years. <snip>

As well as helping people in difficulty, Giovanopoulos said, Greece’s solidarity movement was fostering “almost a different sense of what politics should be – a politics from the bottom up, that starts with real people’s needs. It’s a practical critique of the empty, top-down, representational politics our traditional parties practise. It’s kind of a whole new model, actually. And it’s working.”
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/23/greece-solidarity-movement-cooperatives-syriza
 
Just to be clear, the reason I mention the community movement stuff above is because, in my head at least (I was arguing along these lines in the 'Greens are shit' thread a while back), any anti-neoliberal popular front or whatever it is that Syrizia is, needs to be grounded in a solidarity movement to have any hope whatsoever.
 
The counter culture over time here in the U.K has run all sorts of projects, soup kitchens, advice drop ins, cultural centres, the problem is/was, that many of its volunteers were young and transient , moved into middle class professions,etc, and of course some activities were for the benefit of the above. Now, young people and others are having to work all hours to survive or fulfil onerous and petty benefit conditions. However, if the Tories are re-elected, and Osbornes war on the state continues, 20 billions of welfare cuts, we will see some of the DIY culture re-remerge here, and it won't just be counter-cultural.,
 
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