Golliwog in the window - should this really be in court?

[beesonthewhatnow]

Is the pub tied to a brewery or a free house?

 

[Wilf]

and one of the meetings was a selection one for the good beer guide

Yes, I couldn't work out whether that was a visit to assess the pub for their awards or a meeting to decide which pub got the award. Either way, they were holding CAMRA events in the pub each year from at least 2016-20 and would have had an opportunity to see the 'display' on the bar (as well as get a sense of the rapey atmosphere, as described by scifisam. Just awful, awful). Shame on you CAMRA.

 

[Wilf]

A bit more on how CAMRA regions select their pub of the year. This is Reading and Mid Berks, but the criteria are national. Note that there have to be at least 20 visits by members and then a process that would allow other members to intervene and say 'hold on, this place is fucking racist'. Note also the values/welcome/community criteria:

Pub of the Year - Reading & Mid Berks CAMRA

reading.camra.org.uk

How does it work?​

First we invite all members to suggest the pub that they think should be the next Pub of the Year. From those and the pubs that are at the highest level of beer quality scores (Any pub that has had over 20 'visits' is eligible and we almost always pick the top pubs in % terms of 'good' scores to go through to POTY (the 'best of the best' if you will). A shortlist of ten pubs will be prepared to go to the next available Branch meeting. From these, the meeting will choose five-six finalists. The ten on the shortlist will be published at least a week before the meeting. Therefore those who cannot get to the Branch meeting can nominate another member who is going to be their proxy and cast their vote for them. Our branch rules on proxy voting only allow the members present to cast their own and one proxy vote.

The result of the selection of finalists are announced before the end of October and from then on any time you visit one of the finalists, you can rate it according to the national criteria set out for deciding the branch, regional and national pubs of the year.

The criteria are laid out below:

• Quality and Condition of Product
• Promotion and Knowledge of Product
• Cleanliness and Staff Hygiene
• Service, Welcome and Offering
• Style, Décor and Furnishings
• Community Focus and Atmosphere
• Sympathy with CAMRA's Aims
• Overall Impression and Value

 

[bimble]

Only scumbags and home secretaries would try to argue otherwise.

Good afternoon from Great Britian.





eta i think you have to interpret the question a bit, assume that people answered something different from what is written there, like maybe they answered 'do you think you should have the right to be racist if you want to'.

 

[Riklet]

The question is whether it's racist to display one though right? Even if they are racist if you have a collection of them from the past or something is displaying it actually a racist act?

With this lady it seems so but what about in a museum or in an art or cultural context?

 

[LDC]

The question is whether it's racist to display one though right? Even if they are racist if you have a collection of them from the past or something is displaying it actually a racist act?

With this lady it seems so but what about in a museum or in an art or cultural context?

I mean that's very charitable of you towards the poll respondents, but I suspect that wasn't what was going through their minds.

 

[bimble]

The question is whether it's racist to display one though right? Even if they are racist if you have a collection of them from the past or something is displaying it actually a racist act?

With this lady it seems so but what about in a museum or in an art or cultural context?

I think thats why context matters, yep. These, like nazi memorabilia and other stuff like that, do belong in museums, but they don't belong hanging from ropes at a public bar. It's not that complicated really.

 

[Riklet]

I mean that's very charitable of you towards the poll respondents, but I suspect that wasn't what was going through their minds.

Yeah theyre probably all just racist thickos who hate the forrins and have no sense or nuance, right?

 

[LDC]

Yeah theyre probably all just racist thickos who hate the forrins and have no sense or nuance, right?

No, that wasn't what I said or thought, and yes the question is open to some interpretation (although 'sell' is less ambiguous and is part of the same question) but given it being in the news so much I'd suspect that is the context most would have been thinking of.

FWIW I rarely think it's useful to categorise someone as racist (or sexist etc.), even when they're expressing racist thoughts or ideas.

 

[Yossarian]

I doubt Conservatives would have been twice as likely as other voters to ponder the nuances of the word "display"

 

[Tanya1982]

I think thats why context matters, yep. These, like nazi memorabilia and other stuff like that, do belong in museums, but they don't belong hanging from ropes at a public bar. It's not that complicated really.

I think that’s exactly it. The comparison works. Nazi poster or newspaper caricature of a Jew is a valid thing to have in context in a museum or within a book. On the wall of a local pub as part of the decor, it would be a fucking terrifying statement about the mentality of the person who hung it there.

The pub in question - this wasn’t a treasured childhood keepsake that someone like a much loved grandparent had given in a bygone era. It’s an entire fucking collection of the things, hanging from the bar, by a landlord who jokes about the good old days when black people were lynched in Mississippi.

 

[Tanya1982]

When I say I know it well, I mean I used to live five minutes' walk away. It's a pretty pub with a view over the river, and does roast dinners and real ale. I'd grown up in the area but hadn't actually been to that pub before ever, or been to any pub in that area for years.

They refused to serve my then-GF, who was Chinese. Outright refused. I was pretty certain it was about race; my GF was quite wealthy and not used to such establishments, so she asked me to try, thinking it was just a locals thing or something, or maybe she was imagining it. They saw who I was sitting with, and simply refused to serve us. Standing back, arms crossed. We gave up, but I had to use the loo, and as I came out, one of the bar blokes was trying to grope my GF, with everyone else just looking on. He stopped back when I came out, which was odd. I'm also female and don't look tough at all.

Then they let us out of the pub through a line of men around the door. We both assumed it was to make sure we left, but actually they felt us up, mostly aiming for my GF and making comments about her tits (in a shirt that completely covered them).

(I might have reported it to the police despite the guarantee of repercussions, but I didn't have to make that decision because my then-GF was adamant about not reporting it, or if I did, I'd have to leave her out of it).

When I mentioned it to two of my neighbours, they were just like, what did you expect? I just hadn't heard of that pub's reputation before - apparently everyone else knew.

I didn't live around there much longer after that, but when I did, I crossed the road to avoid that pub. They are racist, sexist, rapey fuckers.

That is genuinely the most horrific anecdote I’ve ever heard about any pub.

 

[Elpenor]

I think thats why context matters, yep. These, like nazi memorabilia and other stuff like that, do belong in museums, but they don't belong hanging from ropes at a public bar. It's not that complicated really.

Piano wire possibly more apt

 

[ddraig]

Yeah theyre probably all just racist thickos who hate the forrins and have no sense or nuance, right?

when did you change and start down this path?

 

[krtek a houby]

Yeah theyre probably all just racist thickos who hate the forrins and have no sense or nuance, right?

What do you reckon?

 

[Orang Utan]

Good afternoon from Great Britian.


View attachment 370462


eta i think you have to interpret the question a bit, assume that people answered something different from what is written there, like maybe they answered 'do you think you should have the right to be racist if you want to'.

Fucking hell, that’s grim.
It shouldn’t be a question for discussion - it’s not something to opine on. The racism of golliwog dolls is not something that should need to be debated. It’s an incontrovertible fact.

 

[Orang Utan]

Yeah theyre probably all just racist thickos who hate the forrins and have no sense or nuance, right?

Well it’s clear from their interviews and social media posts that that is exactly what they are

 

[krtek a houby]

Well it’s clear from their interviews and social media posts that that is exactly what they are

Think Riklet means the poll respondents, as opposed to the pub gang.

That said, there's no doubt that the "toys" are racist. There's nothing nuanced about it. Not anymore. So, the poll respondents are probably well aware of what their responses are/signify.

 

[pinkmonkey]

Think Riklet means the poll respondents, as opposed to the pub gang.

That said, there's no doubt that the "toys" are racist. There's nothing nuanced about it. Not anymore. So, the poll respondents are probably well aware of what their responses are/signify.

They know and they don't care because it doesn't affect them.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

It’ll mostly be twats who know fine well it’s a racist caricature but anything to push back at what they see as wokery.
Your man in the pub knows this too which is why he deliberately uses them as decorations.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I don’t get why racists pretty much always deny it though. Why not just own it?

 

[Orang Utan]

Think Riklet means the poll respondents, as opposed to the pub gang.

That said, there's no doubt that the "toys" are racist. There's nothing nuanced about it. Not anymore. So, the poll respondents are probably well aware of what their responses are/signify.

Well fuck them too, tbh, they’re also racist thickos

 

[existentialist]

I don’t get why racists pretty much always deny it though. Why not just own it?

Because you can't say anything these days

 

[existentialist]

Am I right in thinking that something like this could have implications for the landlord/pub's licence?

I do hope so.

 

[Wilf]

I don't agree with Riklet, but equally don't think it's useful to read off the 39% as active racists, plain and simple. Don't get me wrong, 'gollywogs' are unambiguously racist and when it comes to defending them, we are getting into something that walks like a duck, talks like a duck etc. But there will be no doubt be a small % who have barely twigged the connotation, along with a bigger proportion of the 39% who see this as a battle about something else ('woke', an attack on 'our' culture and the rest). Not surprising that the biggest overlap is with Brexit voting. All of that is deeply troubling and yes, racist. For another thread, but the failure of the left is in there, with the abandonment of equality and failure to combat neoliberalism. 39% racists, well, yes, kind of, but lots of other stuff in play.

Probably doesn't need to be said, but the vile racists in the pub, along with their routinised sexual assaults are very different.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Am I right in thinking that something like this could have implications for the landlord/pub's licence?

I do hope so.

By 'licence' I hope you mean 'kneecaps'.

 

[existentialist]

By 'licence' I hope you mean 'kneecaps'.

I must admit that the same unworthy thought had crossed my mind, but I don't think we in the Woke Brigade tend to operate that way.

I'll settle for his pub's turnover falling off a cliff.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I don't agree with Riklet, but equally don't think it's useful to read off the 39% as active racists, plain and simple. Don't get me wrong, 'gollywogs' are unambiguously racist and when it comes to defending them, we are getting into something that walks like a duck, talks like a duck etc. But there will be no doubt be a small % who have barely twigged the connotation, along with a bigger proportion of the 39% who see this as a battle about something else ('woke', an attack on 'our' culture and the rest). Not surprising that the biggest overlap is with Brexit voting. All of that is deeply troubling and yes, racist. For another thread, but the failure of the left is in there, with the abandonment of equality and failure to combat neoliberalism. 39% racists, well, yes, kind of, but lots of other stuff in play.

Probably doesn't need to be said, but the vile racists in the pub, along with their routinised sexual assaults are very different.

Racists definitely know they’re racist. It’s a bit like putting bacon on mosques. No ordinary person would do that. In my almost 50 years on the planet I can honestly say I’ve never met anyone that owns a golliwog to my knowledge or them coming up in conversation in any other context than racism (at least after they were removed from jam jars).

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I wondered if you could even procure them easily anymore but there’s a webshop - currently closed due to high demand!

Golliwog & Golly dolls, toys & knitting patterns to buy at Golliwogg.co.uk

www.golliwogg.co.uk

 

[Wilf]

Racists definitely know they’re racist. It’s a bit like putting bacon on mosques. No ordinary person would do that. In my almost 50 years on the planet I can honestly say I’ve never met anyone that owns a golliwog to my knowledge or them coming up in conversation in any other context than racism (at least after they were removed from jam jars).

I think there's also an issue as to the question being asked. As a random example, this poll shows much more liberal attitudes towards ethnicity:

https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/attitudes-race-and-inequality-great-britain

Whereas an issue that probably comes through to respondents as 'elites/the woke police choosing to storm into pubs and remove toys' triggers a whole set of issues that the right have been successful in seeding and the left have failed to counter.