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Global financial system implosion begins

Is this the Chicken Little thread?

Even a chicken little tells the right doom twice a century.

I can just about put up with optimists and anti-doomers at times when things are not collapsing, but in the middle of an economic horror story it is futile to suggest the unfolding reality is just some people with negative attitudes spouting woe. I am looking forward to a new wave of optimism, a new hope that may grow from the hideous gloom pit we are sinking into, but that cannot begin yet, and has little in common with those who seek to deny we are sinking right now.
 
Don't know what Chicken Little is but all this discussion about money is probably bollocks!

Oh noes! the global financial system is fucked!

:D
 
Even a chicken little tells the right doom twice a century.

I can just about put up with optimists and anti-doomers at times when things are not collapsing, but in the middle of an economic horror story it is futile to suggest the unfolding reality is just some people with negative attitudes spouting woe. I am looking forward to a new wave of optimism, a new hope that may grow from the hideous gloom pit we are sinking into, but that cannot begin yet, and has little in common with those who seek to deny we are sinking right now.

Spouting woe.. hideous gloom pits... What's the world coming to eh?
 
Even a chicken little tells the right doom twice a century.

I can just about put up with optimists and anti-doomers at times when things are not collapsing, but in the middle of an economic horror story it is futile to suggest the unfolding reality is just some people with negative attitudes spouting woe. I am looking forward to a new wave of optimism, a new hope that may grow from the hideous gloom pit we are sinking into, but that cannot begin yet, and has little in common with those who seek to deny we are sinking right now.

I'm not an optimist, but I like to be a realist. We've been through recession etc before, and the mountains haven't yet collapsed.
 
I enjoy reading this guy's blog, although some of it makes unpleasant reading.

http://cynicuseconomicus.blogspot.com/

So what would have happened if the banks had been left to their own devices?

I have no doubt that there would have been economic mayhem. There would have been bank runs, bankruptcy, people would have lost their savings, and there would probably have been rioting in the streets. This is why the bailouts took place, to avoid a sudden and painful collapse. In such circumstances, it is easy to see why governments took the option of the bank bailouts. The prospect of a collapse of the financial system is very scary indeed.

It seems that, at this point, I might be supporting the bailout. However, the reason why I highlight the opportunity cost is to highlight the fact that, despite the apparent relative calm, the UK is slowly but surely sinking into the same mire that it sought to escape from. The difference is that it is slower, and the damage to the economy is being moved from a short sharp collapse, to a protracted collapse from which it will be ever more difficult to recover. The difference is that we do not have the rioting in the streets today, but if the collapse takes us in any case to the same place, then it will still be rioting in the streets tommorrow (not in the literal sense of today and tommorrow - obviously).

In other words, has the bailout made any real difference to the actual state of the economy? If the borrowing was really just about a restoration of confidence, and that the economy was fundamentally sound, and the financial crisis was about panic and imagination, rather than the real state of the economy, the bailout would make sense. Under such circumstances, spending money to restore confidence would make sense. However, this is not the case, and it is apparent that the flaws and problems of the economy are very real.

...

The trouble that we now have is that the banks have been bailed out, and the cost of that bailout is the lost opportunity for economic growth in the future. The massive government borrowing represents a massive future slowdown in consumption. Nothing will stop the restructuring of the economy away from consuming more than it produces. As such, the crisis will in all events wind its way to its own sorry conclusion. That conclusion to this crisis will be mass unemployment, mass bankruptcy, and all of the social upheaval that will go with that process.
 
Interesting stuff but Im not quite sure why he thinks a short sharp collapse would have been quicker to recover from. If the banks had collapsed, what companies would be left standing? His point about the bailout working if the economic problems had just been fear and panic was good though.
 
JP_EXP1208.gif
 
Another interesting opinion piece.

Legitimacy Dwindles

Zounds! Public sentiment toward the accelerating economic fiasco has shifted, seemingly overnight, from a mood of nauseated amazement to one of panicked grievance as the United States moves closer to an apparent comprehensive collapse -- and so ill-timed, wouldn't you know it, to coincide with the annual rigors of Santa Claus. The tipping point seems to be the Bernie Madoff $50 billion Ponzi scandal, which represents the grossest failure of authority and hence legitimacy in finance to date in as much as Mr. Madoff was a former chairman of the NASDAQ, for godsake. It's like discovering that Ben Bernanke is running a meth lab inside the Federal Reserve. And out in the heartland, of course, there is the spectacle of Illinois governor Rod Blagojevich trying to desperately dodge a racketeering rap behind an implausible hairdo.

What seems to spook people now is the possibility that everybody in charge of everything is a fraud or a crook. Legitimacy has left the system.
 
:D

"Now is when we need a president who has the skill, the vision and the courage to cut through this cacophony, pull us together as one nation and inspire and enable us to do the one thing we can and must do right now: Go shopping." ~ Tom Friedman
 
What seems to spook people now is the possibility that everybody in charge of everything is a fraud or a crook. Legitimacy has left the system.

Let us hope that we all wise up in the UK. I have no insight to where this is heading but this could be the mother of all recessions in the UK.

Soup kitchens and rioting in the streets. I have been through 1980s and 1990s downturns but 21 st century recession could be bumpy.
 
Beyond words........

The Associated Press did a review of financial records and found that 116 banks that have received bailout money from the TARP fund paid huge salaries to their top executives last year even while declaring themselves poor and on the verge of collapse.

Banks that are getting taxpayer bailouts awarded their top executives nearly $1.6 billion in salaries, bonuses, and other benefits last year, an Associated Press analysis reveals.

The rewards came even at banks where poor results last year foretold the economic crisis that sent them to Washington for a government rescue. Some trimmed their executive compensation due to lagging bank performance, but still forked over multimillion-dollar executive pay packages.

Benefits included cash bonuses, stock options, personal use of company jets and chauffeurs, home security, country club memberships and professional money management, the AP review of federal securities documents found.

Some highlights, like the CEO of Goldman Sachs, which has so far received $10 billion in taxpayer dollars this year:

Lloyd Blankfein, president and chief executive officer of Goldman Sachs, took home nearly $54 million in compensation last year.

The company's top five executives received a total of $242 million.

http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2008/12/bailed_out_bank_execs_make_big.php
 
Interest Rate Swaps

The Bank for International Settlements reports that interest rate swaps are the largest component of the global OTC derivative market. The notional amount outstanding as of December 2006 in OTC interest rate swaps was $229.8 trillion, up $60.7 trillion (35.9%) from December 2005.

Might be worth remembering these....
 
What seems to spook people now is the possibility that everybody in charge of everything is a fraud or a crook. Legitimacy has left the system.

Oh a credibility crunch to go with the credit crunch and carbon crunch. Perfect storm.

Our leaders managed to delay this stuff for quite a few years, a credibility crunch could easily have emerged after Enron. For a while it looked like Bush could be very useful as a scapegoat, taking all the heat,but the scale of financial delusion that has been exposed goes way beyond that game now.
 
These massive confidence issues have happened before tho, and ultimately they recede because people have to trade. At least Badoff is a straight up conman, even if he was left in charge, as opposed to the far more pernicious frauds such as Enron, Drexel back in the 80s etc.

It will all pass.
 
At least Badoff is a straight up conman, even if he was left in charge, as opposed to the far more pernicious frauds such as Enron, Drexel back in the 80s etc.

Eh? Madoff's thang severely damages the credibility of the regulators, hedge funds, and those who were perceived as financial gods.

If there were a market for optimistic futures, only a chump would invest in it right now. If only me and the usual suspects thought that, there would be no big problem, but I think the perfect storm will prevent 'business as usual' for a very long time, perhaps forever. Saying it will all pass means nothing to me, sure these clouds will be gone one day, but much of what people still take for granted will pass with it.
 
So the conditions and rules of trading will change, but trading (of all kinds, not just financial services type trading) will continue. New rules, new opportunities, new profits.
 
Another interesting opinion piece.

Legitimacy Dwindles
I think that there is another source of the errosion of legitimacy. If the authorities around the world can stop a serious slide, then people will cease to trust them. Bye and large people have paid very little attention to economics and politics over the past 20 years. A sort of compact has existed where the electorate leave the governments to get on with running the economy while they have largely gotten all het up about side issues like immigration, terrorism or hospital super bugs. Hard, difficult politcs like econmics has been by and large put on the back burner. Plan A, the low regulation, high credit, huge deficits in trade and budget world has exploded in everyones faces. Plan B is a very very hurried return to demand side economics. If this does not work people will likely stop trusting the authorities and look for scape goats and new solutions. Quite where that will lead us is an interesting and somewhat worrying question.
 
So the conditions and rules of trading will change, but trading (of all kinds, not just financial services type trading) will continue. New rules, new opportunities, new profits.

But not enough oil or gas production to make this happen + global warming.
 
I posted elsewhere about the Archbishops criticism of the economy, looks like it is happening in Germany too:

Speaking to the Berliner Zeitung newspaper, Bishop Huber argued that bankers had a duty to look beyond the short term and to ensure stability: “Never again should a Deutsche Bank chief executive set a profit goal of 25 per cent.” Such goals drove up profit expectations to unsustainable levels and amounted to “a form of idolatry”, he said. “In the current circumstances, money has become a god.”

and also...

Others who have attacked bankers in Germany include Horst Köhler, the country’s president, who in May described global financial markets as “a monster” that “must be put back in its place”. In his Christmas Eve address to Germans, Mr Köhler said the current crisis should be used as a chance to re-order the economy so that capital “serves” society.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9b0453f6-d37c-11dd-989e-000077b07658.html
 
I think that there is another source of the errosion of legitimacy. If the authorities around the world can stop a serious slide, then people will cease to trust them. Bye and large people have paid very little attention to economics and politics over the past 20 years. A sort of compact has existed where the electorate leave the governments to get on with running the economy while they have largely gotten all het up about side issues like immigration, terrorism or hospital super bugs. Hard, difficult politcs like econmics has been by and large put on the back burner. Plan A, the low regulation, high credit, huge deficits in trade and budget world has exploded in everyones faces. Plan B is a very very hurried return to demand side economics. If this does not work people will likely stop trusting the authorities and look for scape goats and new solutions. Quite where that will lead us is an interesting and somewhat worrying question.

Sitting in an old fisherman’s cafe by the port, Orn Svavarsson shakes with rage. He sold his health food business three years ago when he was 54 and, like many of his countrymen, put the money into the stock market. It has been wiped out.

“The Icelandic people are too lazy,” he says. “Why don’t we go to the airport and block it until we get answers?

“For the first time in my life I have sympathy with the Bolsheviks; with the French revolutionaries who put up the guillotine.”
source
 
We all make choices in life. And like it or not we've got to accept the risks as well as the benefits, the downside as well as the upside of what those choices may entail.

But there does indeed have to be a reckoning, a point put very well by this commentator:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/24/george-bush-guantanamo-bay-us-government

Nobody forces us to devote our lives to serving the 'God' of money, although there are obviously powerful forces in the manipulation industries of marketing, advertising etc that help to ensure significant numbers do. Nobody even forces people to have a cheque or savings account either. It is just yet another product that could go faulty (and belly-up!) at a later date.

Capitalism has turned people into inter-dependent, monetarily hooked, servants of one another, worshipping at the altar of the house of cards that is monetarism and the global financial system. That system may or may not fully recover. If it does survive, it will be much-changed.

And as we are seeing with what has happened in Greece and other countries, and yesterday's slaughter in Palestine by Israel (which could all to easily erupt into a new middle east war) civil unrest and wars make bad situations even worse.

Whether it survives or not, whether the highly ecologically destructive system of rampant consumerism and consumption upon which much of this system was based, there are simple values and pleasures in life and home-spun values that we can all tap into.

Even if your livelihood seems secure and safe just now, people should start moving into them now and start building back-up systems for themselves and their communities to lessen the impact later and ensure they have something to keep them, their families and communities going should the worse happen.

Simple healthy budget home-cooking, food gardening, keeping chickens, starting recycling and eco-businesses, arts and crafts and new holistic and spiritually relevant health care businesses, will and should all be sustainable, growth areas that are built on a 'rock' rather than the foundation of sand of the old, highly leveraged, confidence game of the old free-market system.
 
It's going to take a bit more than an allotment and a handful of homeopathic sugar pills to sort this mess out, I think.
 
It's going to take a bit more than an allotment and a handful of homeopathic sugar pills to sort this mess out, I think.
:D
Aye, just a bit.

The shift to a just, sustainable system that optimises quality of life will be nothing short of a revolution. If it actually happens (or is allowed to happen) it'll be a bloody miracle...
 
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