Gerry Adams exposed , his lies demolished at brothers rape trial

[likesfish]

mi5 is not 9 to 5 you know

Most squaddies thought either gerry or martin or both if not agents were more or less informers or playimg some sort of game

 

[Casually Red]

Both agents for a cert in my view

 

[intersol32]

Not surprising given that PSF have been developing into a nodding dog organization over the years. Like it was mentioned earlier, any faction prepared to tear down Adams over this has been ejected or has passed away. Can anyone imagine the furore this would have created had it come out in the mid-80's? (or even early 90's).

Unfortunately given the current membership consisting heavily of ex-SDLP types, careerists and so forth there's almost zero possibility of anything happening to him internally. Seriously. There's many within the party who will always consider him to be some sort of Irish Nelson Mandela, and while that kind of misguided hero worship exists all he'll need to do is waft his hand Obi-Wan style across their eyes and all doubt in his divine abilities will vanish.

The Court transcripts describing his questioning reveal a man who can't handle straightforward critical reasoning. Instead of possessing a wily or deft ability to deal with such circumstances, he comes across as stupid, deceitful, self serving and arrogant. This again raises serious issues around the negotiations (both official and unofficial) that the PSF were having with the British State.

Then again, Adams and co. were all convinced they'd take their place within the mainstream of Irish politics. I guess they'll be in good company.

"..and Cassius and Brutus, they too are honourable men..."

 

[Idris2002]

mi5 is not 9 to 5 you know

Most squaddies thought either gerry or martin or both if not agents were more or less informers or playimg some sort of game

Both agents for a cert in my view

If they'd both been agents, we wouldn't have had the negotiated settlement we ended up with - which is not a return to Stormont no matter what the dissidents say. Instead, we'd have just seen GA and MM spread general mayhem through the movement, and the Brits would have rolled it up well before 1994.

 

[likesfish]

That assumes the brits were competant

 

[Idris2002]

That assumes the brits were competant

Well, in the case of Malaya - where we know for a fact that the senior Malayan CP leader was a Bratash agent - the war ended not with a negotiated settlement, but with the utter rout of the CP and its armed wing.

 

[likesfish]

But they were brown people along way away so the military were given a free hand
The northern irish are nearly proper people we even let some of those beastly ulsterman sit in the house of commons dreadful people always shouting about the pope

The british establishment never gave a damm about NI and understood less the minister for NI was always the booby prize in politics when sacking somebody wasnt seen as cruel enough St Mo got dumped there by blair and suceeded inspite rather than because she had any support

 

[intersol32]

If they'd both been agents, we wouldn't have had the negotiated settlement we ended up with - which is not a return to Stormont no matter what the dissidents say. Instead, we'd have just seen GA and MM spread general mayhem through the movement, and the Brits would have rolled it up well before 1994.

On the other hand Sinn Fein's Denis Donaldson was a British Agent for many years, and throughout this time he was an outspoken campaigner in favour of the Peace Process. Even to the extent that he was responsible for going over to the U.S. and making sure that hardliners in their support network were marginalized.

There are more ways than one to create "general mayhem" in a movement. A gradual emasculation of it politically would be another tactic. You don't need to use a copy of the Malayan blueprint (which would involve committing large amounts of military resources, and risk bloodshed and the possible revulsion of the general public) - these days things can be done far more subtly.

 

[DaveCinzano]

'Being an agent' hardly means being a wholly pliant, efficient proxy for the strategic ambitions of the directing power.

Similarly, there was and is not a single 'directing power', but a panopoly of such organisations, which whilst ostensibly on the same side, have been shown not infrequently to be engaged in turf battles with each other, for tactical, strategic or political reasons.

Also, there are the very human aspects that come in to play, both when it comes to agents and their handlers.

As we can see from the cases of avowed agents of the British state, be they working for Special Branch, the Army, Security Service or SIS, being an effective agent and being considered an effective agent does not mean that they always acted as directed, nor that they never withheld information, misrepresented situations or engaged in criminal activities outside of their brief; and that is also something which we may come to believe of handlers, supervisors and planners further up the command structure.

 

[Idris2002]

There are more ways than one to create "general mayhem" in a movement. A gradual emasculation of it politically would be another tactic.

But to able to pursue that tactic would involve an ability to foresee the future that Mystic Meg herself would have envied.

 

[intersol32]

But to able to pursue that tactic would involve an ability to foresee the future that Mystic Meg herself would have envied.

Hardly. Infiltration of a movement, pushing certain elements away using rumour and conjecture. Getting into a position where informers can promote individuals who are more amiable to certain settlements and initiatives. It's a long term game, and one that isn't outside the remit or capabilities of the British (or any other major European) State.

 

[toggle]

well that was basically the period in which Adams set about taking everything over . The sinn fein leadership was mostly southern based and old school . Adams didnt become president until the early 80s. The vice president was Maire Drumm from Belfast and she was assassinated, leaving Adams free to walk into her shoes pretty much shortly after the state dropped IRA membership charges against him...and Martin McGuiness. The previous army council and many within the sinn fein leadership stood somewhat discreditted after the mid 1970s ceasefire period, when it had become apparent the state had just been stringing them along. Although thats an oversimplification Adams used it to his full advantage , playing the ultra militarist card the entire time and using not only his own oratorical talents but the backing of Brendan Hughes and Ivor Bell on the military front to assume control. He basically took army first, sinn fein second over the period of about 5 or 6 years. By the time he had control the old guard were all out in RSF, Hughes sidelined and Bell under suspended death sentence.

Ed Moloneys analysis, secret history of the IRA is one anaysis worth considering, although theres a lot of other sources out there that fill smaller gaps.


eta

Ruairi OBradaighs biography is well worth a read too. He, as some of you know im sure, was the SF president he suceeded in ousting in 83. He only has one biography mind, unlike Adams who thus far has written over a dozen books about himself .

Although moloney put his head up his arse later, he seems to have been one of very few who gave Adams the 'credit' for the levels of manipulation that were going on. Most of what I've read is academic papers, but from what I remember, there's almost nothing in those that wants to admit that the processes of change within Sinn Fein wasn't a gradual process caused by external factors. eg, political engagement led to cultural change within the movement. None of them seemed to want to discuss Adams as anything other than 'peacemaker'.

 

[Idris2002]

Hardly. Infiltration of a movement, pushing certain elements away using rumour and conjecture. Getting into a position where informers can promote individuals who are more amiable to certain settlements and initiatives. It's a long term game, and one that isn't outside the remit or capabilities of the British (or any other major European) State.

And having a masterplan that you calmly execute over the course of an entire quarter-century?

 

[Idris2002]

Although moloney put his head up his arse later, he seems to have been one of very few who gave Adams the 'credit' for the levels of manipulation that were going on. Most of what I've read is academic papers, but from what I remember, there's almost nothing in those that wants to admit that the processes of change within Sinn Fein wasn't a gradual process caused by external factors. eg, political engagement led to cultural change within the movement. None of them seemed to want to discuss Adams as anything other than 'peacemaker'.

Wasn't the rise of Adams and McGuiness connected to just that sort of cultural change within the movement, i.e. what occurred with the shift in power away from the southern-based old guard to the new generation who had come up fighting in the north in the 1970s?

 

[intersol32]

And having a masterplan that you calmly execute over the course of an entire quarter-century?

I think a British Army Intelligence handler once referred to the role of such informers as "nudging and persuading" whenever possible, as well as feeding back info on internal meetings and discussions. In fact this was probably outlined in Ed Maloney's "Secret History of the IRA" - who explains it in more detail than I ever could.

I don't think a timeline is ever anything that would disturb the British either. I mean, Donaldson admitted being a spy for over 20 years (BBC source).

 

[Idris2002]

I think a British Army Intelligence handler once referred to the role of such informers as "nudging and persuading" whenever possible, as well as feeding back info on internal meetings and discussions. In fact this was probably outlined in Ed Maloney's "Secret History of the IRA" - who explains it in more detail than I ever could.

I don't think a timeline is ever anything that would disturb the British either. I mean, Donaldson admitted being a spy for over 20 years (BBC source).

Nudge and persuade to do what, though? How can you know that what you've nudged and persuaded your man on the inside to do in 1986 won't be in contradiction with what you need him, or the movement you're trying to manipulate through him, to do in 1987?

 

[dylanredefined]

I think a British Army Intelligence handler once referred to the role of such informers as "nudging and persuading" whenever possible, as well as feeding back info on internal meetings and discussions. In fact this was probably outlined in Ed Maloney's "Secret History of the IRA" - who explains it in more detail than I ever could.

I don't think a timeline is ever anything that would disturb the British either. I mean, Donaldson admitted being a spy for over 20 years (BBC source).

AN acceptable level of violence was another cynical British term. A few bombs and a few dead squaddies was considered okay and a price worth paying to have high level agents in PIRA. It always seemed to me the intelligence people were playing a strange game which was an end in itself rather trying to end the war.

 

[toggle]

Wasn't the rise of Adams and McGuiness connected to just that sort of cultural change within the movement, i.e. what occurred with the shift in power away from the southern-based old guard to the new generation who had come up fighting in the north in the 1970s?

AFAIK, That led to acceptance of dual engagement, aka armalite and ballot box. what is not so easily explainable is how the political side came to be the dominant part. that tends to be explained by the idea that political engagement will change those who are engaging, and encourage more people to join who are primarily interested only in political engagement. but there's nothing in those papers about the role of Adams as a game player and his need for personal power.

I think a British Army Intelligence handler once referred to the role of such informers as "nudging and persuading" whenever possible, as well as feeding back info on internal meetings and discussions. In fact this was probably outlined in Ed Maloney's "Secret History of the IRA" - who explains it in more detail than I ever could.

Nothing that is a significant and overt sudden change, but enough. IIRC, Moloney's Brendan Hughes interview seems to be suggesting that pIRA was fully compromised by the time of his release and suggests quite strongly that he does not believe this could have happened without assistance (from adams?).

I was told straight up not to take the allegations about Adams too seriously a few years ago, and I followed that line. i'm starting to think that was a bad call.

 

[Pickman's model]

Hardly. Infiltration of a movement, pushing certain elements away using rumour and conjecture. Getting into a position where informers can promote individuals who are more amiable to certain settlements and initiatives. It's a long term game, and one that isn't outside the remit or capabilities of the British (or any other major European) State.

out of curiosity could you point to some other examples of this outside the context of ireland?

 

[DaveCinzano]

I was told straight up not to take the allegations about Adams too seriously a few years ago

Told by whom?

 

[Idris2002]

Told by whom?

His MI5 handler.

 

[Idris2002]

AFAIK, That led to acceptance of dual engagement, aka armalite and ballot box. what is not so easily explainable is how the political side came to be the dominant part.

Surely it came to dominate through the fact that it was no longer run by men focused on the nation as a whole, but by people who were "fighting for their streets"?

 

[DaveCinzano]

His MI5 handler.

Toggle is a 'her', I believe - or did you mean Gerry's handler?

 

[Idris2002]

Toggle is a 'her', I believe - or did you mean Gerry's handler?

"Unhandle me, villain!"

 

[shygirl]

Is this what people have been hinting at for the past year or so, following the revelations about Saville. I've read numerous posts hinting that someone in SF would be exposed, or is there someone else?

 

[Idris2002]

Is this what people have been hinting at for the past year or so, following the revelations about Saville. I've read numerous posts hinting that someone in SF would be exposed, or is there someone else?

Well, I think Liam Adams was already "exposed" a couple of years before Savile, so yeah, there probaly is someone else.

 

[DaveCinzano]

"Unhandle me, villain!"

"I can't be sure of the timeline regarding when first I became aware that, I mean, the timeline, erm, I am saying that with the peace process there might have been a handling, but that to have complete certainty that the handling, of the President of the organisation to which I have been, um, that's to say that I was, perhaps, as they say, 'handled', by a person, at a time, but I can definitely recall that there were, if my recollection is 100% accurate, tea and biscuits..."

 

[shygirl]

Well, I think Liam Adams was already "exposed" a couple of years before Savile, so yeah, there probaly is someone else.

No, I meant GA being exposed for hiding the info. But, having read the thread, I realise it was already out.

 

[intersol32]

Nudge and persuade to do what, though? How can you know that what you've nudged and persuaded your man on the inside to do in 1986 won't be in contradiction with what you need him, or the movement you're trying to manipulate through him, to do in 1987?

That could easily happen. But again, I reckon you're trying to suggest there's an unbroken and well-laid (as you said) "masterplan". There may well be a desirable outcome long-term, however any intelligence operation that spans a considerable number of years would have to cope with the fluidity of a movement over the passage of time. For instance, different personalities coming into the organization, emerging situations outside the control of either the State Services or the revolutionary group etc. Even changes in governments that may dictate that the groups should be negotiated with (or not), or what kind of tact they want their intelligence services to take, and how much funding they're willing to give.

Donaldson's 20 year career would have included his time in the IRA and all that entailed. At some point he could easily have been told to move over into the political sphere once PSF were coming further to the fore.

 

[Idris2002]

That could easily happen. But again, I reckon you're trying to suggest there's an unbroken and well-laid (as you said) "masterplan". There may well be a desirable outcome long-term, however any intelligence operation that spans a considerable number of years would have to cope with the fluidity of a movement over the passage of time. For instance, different personalities coming into the organization, emerging situations outside the control of either the State Services or the revolutionary group etc. Even changes in governments that may dictate that the groups should be negotiated with (or not), or what kind of tact they want their intelligence services to take, and how much funding they're willing to give.

Donaldson's 20 year career would have included his time in the IRA and all that entailed. At some point he could easily have been told to move over into the political sphere once PSF were coming further to the fore.

Yes, but what Casually Red seems to be arguing is that the evolution the republican movement experienced since the hunger strikes was the result of puppet masters in London pulling strings via Gerry and Martin - and that doesn't allow for the fluidity of a movement over the passage of time.