Gerry Adams exposed , his lies demolished at brothers rape trial

[revol68]

1st wrong step - abandoning the policy of abstentionism in the Dail 1986
2nd wrong step - two ceasefires in 1994 and 1997
3rd wrong step - Decommisionong all weapons 2005
4th wrong step - accepting the PSNI as a legitimate police force 2007

Nothing but a bunch of sell outs and if the definition of a dissident is to go against the modern day narrative of the Republican Movement then call me a dissident!

You're spot on and that's why RSF are the legitimate government of Ireland...

Wise the fuck up, money on it you supported all those ceasefires, so stop acting the ceasefire soldier now.

The provo's came to grips with reality, they couldn't beat the Brits out and they knew it, the issue was the unionism population that simply couldn't be beaten into a united Ireland, (not to mention the issue of the south not being able to deal with it).

Anthony McIntyre's piece on the future of republicanism is one of the most honest takes I've read from republican, provo, dissident or otherwise, though it does prompt the obvious question of what's the use in republicanism, when the issues are class and social justice and the border has no relevance.

http://thepensivequill.am/2013/09/talking-at-newtowncunningham.html

"It seems to me that republicans often ignored the evidence available and in the process managed to get the causal factor in the British state presence back to front: they saw unionism as being held in place by Britain rather than seeing Britain as being held in place in Ireland by unionism. British imperialism as it is often termed in republican discourse can manage quite easily without any territorial acquisition in Ireland."

 

[revol68]

Which is why the attacks on the City plus the attempts on Canary Wharf proved to be such a game-changer.

Actually the provos knew they were essentially unrepeatable and as such were never meant to be part of a final TET like offensive to get the brits out and much more about putting pressure on the british government to come to/resume talks.

 

[grit]

No, it's pronounced "Awn-ye".

You are both wrong lol! its awn-ya

In fairness it is one of the more difficult to pronounce Irish names, Aoife is another one people have difficulty with outside of Ireland.

 

[petee]

Aoife is another one people have difficulty with outside of Ireland.

'eef - eh' is it?

 

[grit]

'eef - eh' is it?

close! eef-ah

 

[N_igma]

You're spot on and that's why RSF are the legitimate government of Ireland...

Wise the fuck up, money on it you supported all those ceasefires, so stop acting the ceasefire soldier now.

The provo's came to grips with reality, they couldn't beat the Brits out and they knew it, the issue was the unionism population that simply couldn't be beaten into a united Ireland, (not to mention the issue of the south not being able to deal with it).

Anthony McIntyre's piece on the future of republicanism is one of the most honest takes I've read from republican, provo, dissident or otherwise, though it does prompt the obvious question of what's the use in republicanism, when the issues are class and social justice and the border has no relevance.

http://thepensivequill.am/2013/09/talking-at-newtowncunningham.html

"It seems to me that republicans often ignored the evidence available and in the process managed to get the causal factor in the British state presence back to front: they saw unionism as being held in place by Britain rather than seeing Britain as being held in place in Ireland by unionism. British imperialism as it is often termed in republican discourse can manage quite easily without any territorial acquisition in Ireland."

True it was an end game the Brits couldn't beat the Provos and the Provos couldn't beat the Brits but isn't there something romantic about the notion of physical force Republicanism lol

What do you think of the idea of Provincial Federalism as espoused by RSF apparently some of the prods were tempted by the idea in the 80's but it died out. Hard to believe but there used to be very left leaning loyalists pity the scum run them down

 

[krtek a houby]

1st wrong step - abandoning the policy of abstentionism in the Dail 1986
2nd wrong step - two ceasefires in 1994 and 1997
3rd wrong step - Decommisionong all weapons 2005
4th wrong step - accepting the PSNI as a legitimate police force 2007

Nothing but a bunch of sell outs and if the definition of a dissident is to go against the modern day narrative of the Republican Movement then call me a dissident!

Dissident. Dangerous, derranged, dipstick dizzie.

 

[Joe Reilly]

Actually the provos knew they were essentially unrepeatable and as such were never meant to be part of a final TET like offensive to get the brits out and much more about putting pressure on the british government to come to/resume talks.

Baltic Exchange, and Bishopsgate in successive years, plus Canary Wharf in 1992 and more succesfully in 1996. So not 'essentially unrepeatable'. But then again, so potentially devastating were they to the Brit economy (particularly the bit of it closest to establishment hearts) they didn't really have to be on speed dial.[/

 

[toggle]

That would be Eire nua?

Seemed to me like one of the more well considered solutions, but was always going to run aground with those republicans that didn't want to compromise with unionists and unionists who always have been manipulated or bought or bullied into fighting against their own interests in the name of not having to share anything.

but IIRC, many of the most infamously bigoted unionist performances have been at the times when it looked like working class catholics and protestants might find some common ground?

 

[revol68]

True it was an end game the Brits couldn't beat the Provos and the Provos couldn't beat the Brits but isn't there something romantic about the notion of physical force Republicanism lol

What do you think of the idea of Provincial Federalism as espoused by RSF apparently some of the prods were tempted by the idea in the 80's but it died out. Hard to believe but there used to be very left leaning loyalists pity the scum run them down

RSF are at best a bunch of christian democrats with guns.

Give up on Ireland, it was the failed dream of radical bourgeois prods.

No Faith, No Crown, No Country

 

[N_igma]

It's weird I kinda agree with what you say Revol but I'm still Irish and I have a nationalistic tendency which goes against my rationality but still I want a United Socialist Ireland and that's that lol.

Krtek - just because I don't agree with the path Sinn Fein have gone down doesn't mean I necessarily agree with violence. I'm a political 'dissident' and I don't have any qualms admitting to that fact.

 

[JHE]

1st wrong step - abandoning the policy of abstentionism in the Dail 1986
2nd wrong step - two ceasefires in 1994 and 1997
3rd wrong step - Decommisionong all weapons 2005
4th wrong step - accepting the PSNI as a legitimate police force 2007

Nothing but a bunch of sell outs and if the definition of a dissident is to go against the modern day narrative of the Republican Movement then call me a dissident!

If the Republican movement had continued with the armed struggle, shooting and bombing as before:

• Would they be any nearer the reunification of Ireland than they are now?
• Would the Republican movement have achieved the level of electoral success that it has achieved?
• Would their counterparts in the Loyalist terror groups have been persuaded to give up their murder and torture?
• Would anything be better than it currently is?

It seems to me that the reason that Adams and Co were able to turn the Republican movement around was that the political base of the movement wanted peace.

(I also think the politics of Republicans giving up violence and becoming a peaceful democratic movement have nothing at all to do with the horrors in Adam's family and his alleged and probable failure to behave responsibly in the face of his brother's child abuse.)

 

[revol68]

It's weird I kinda agree with what you say Revol but I'm still Irish and I have a nationalistic tendency which goes against my rationality but still I want a United Socialist Ireland and that's that lol.

Krtek - just because I don't agree with the path Sinn Fein have gone down doesn't mean I necessarily agree with violence. I'm a political 'dissident' and I don't have any qualms admitting to that fact.

2. Thou shalt not be a patriot for a patriot is an international blackleg. Your duty to yourself and your class demands that you be a citizen of the world.

 

[Casually Red]

The provo's came to grips with reality,

this is a joke, particularly after reading that performance in that court transcript and the tweets from a man whos relationship with reality is at best tenuous . The provos didnt even know the great leader had embarked on his own personal peace process without bothering to tell them . Just as he hadnt told them about his child rapist brother . When he eventually put in writing his sordid double act with that lowlife John Hume and came up with the Hume Adams agreement they werent allowed to know what was in that either . And still arent, despite the British, Irish and US governments being presented with it.
Instead of accepting the political..and indeed national..ground had been sold out from under them they were actively encouraged ....by the same party whispering machine that told them Brendan Hughes begged gerrys forgiveness with his dying breath... to believe there was a united nationalist political front going to push the brits on partition backed up by US diplomatic pressure which would be taking the Irish side . Aceasefire was simply to facilitate that. The british also wanted to leave but cant be seen to buckle under armed pressure . The media hoopla about Adams getting his US visa greatly assisted this utter crock of shite .
They were later told by that bollocks ...and possible tout...joe cahill that they had in fact won the war . And after repeated British demands they disband their army, surrender their weaponry, accept British sovereignty in Ireland as both legitimate and possibly permanent, along with its armed forces, and resistance to it an act of criminality they run about wearing t shirts with the legend IRA ..undefeated army

reality never entered the provo equation to even an nth degree, and still hasnt . Self delusion and deceit did. To the point a man who protected a child rapist for decades is now a poor victim.

 

[N_igma]

If the Republican movement had continued with the armed struggle, shooting and bombing as before:

• Would they be any nearer the reunification of Ireland than they are now?
• Would the Republican movement have achieved the level of electoral success that it has achieved?
• Would their counterparts in the Loyalist terror groups have been persuaded to give up their murder and torture?
• Would anything be better than it currently is?

It seems to me that the reason that Adams and Co were able to turn the Republican movement around was that the political base of the movement wanted peace.

(I also think the politics of Republicans giving up violence and becoming a peaceful democratic movement have nothing at all to do with the horrors in Adam's family and his alleged and probable failure to behave responsibly in the face of his brother's child abuse.)

The zenith of the movement peaked in 1972 it was all downhill after that the hunger strikes served to prolong the war but was an opportunity for constitutional nationalism to sprite.

The Brits have no intention of giving up Northern Ireland. Never have never will even though the majority of Brits probably don't want the burden of it and the free staters don't want it either it's a fucked up situation. Still doesn't get away from the fact that Sinn Fein sold out. The IRA sold out and we're no closer to a United Ireland than we were 20 years ago.

British rule has been accepted and the Nationalists are happy to go with the status quo which is ridiculous Gerry said there would be a UI by the centenary of the Easter Rising fat chance!

 

[Casually Red]

No Faith, No Crown, No Country

Thou shalt not be a patriot for a patriot is an international blackleg. Your duty to yourself and your class demands that you be a citizen of the world.

ah..empty slogans competition time ...why not be a recooooord breaaker ...or Cillit bang and its gone, while your at it . Its as much use and takes the same intellectual effort .

 

[revol68]

By all accounts Adams and his band of men maneuvered the provos into the peace process almost step by step but let's not overstate it, history doesn't work that way, rather there was a growing weariness within the movement that armed struggle couldn't win and it was this weariness that Adams and co went to work on.

Christ, most of Adam's biggest critics see no sense in continuing "the war", understanding that the traditional reading of the Brits being there to prop up unionism gets the dynamic the wrong way round. The current armed struggle idiots can neither forget nor learn anything, they have no analysis, just slogans passed on down generations, to smaller and smaller circles.

The Provo's wised up to reality and subsequently spun their defeat as really a victory for catholic equality within the Northern polity, as if that was what they were only ever fighting for.

 

[Casually Red]

True it was an end game the Brits couldn't beat the Provos and the Provos couldn't beat the Brits but isn't there something romantic about the notion of physical force Republicanism lol

What do you think of the idea of Provincial Federalism as espoused by RSF apparently some of the prods were tempted by the idea in the 80's but it died out. Hard to believe but there used to be very left leaning loyalists pity the scum run them down

it didnt just die out, Gerry Adams made it his mission in life to kill it, branding it a sop to unionism .


anyways slogan boy there has sidestepped your question by harrumphing something about RSF being christian democrats with guns rather than address the political issue you put to him . Ill wait and see does he ever come back to it before i make a stab at it . Thats what good manners are for .

 

[revol68]

ah..empty slogans competition time ...why not be a recooooord breaaker ...or Cillit bang and its gone, while your at it . Its as much use and takes the same intellectual effort .

The zenith of the movement peaked in 1972 it was all downhill after that the hunger strikes served to prolong the war but was an opportunity for constitutional nationalism to sprite.

The Brits have no intention of giving up Northern Ireland. Never have never will even though the majority of Brits probably don't want the burden of it and the free staters don't want it either it's a fucked up situation. Still doesn't get away from the fact that Sinn Fein sold out. The IRA sold out and we're no closer to a United Ireland than we were 20 years ago.

British rule has been accepted and the Nationalists are happy to go with the status quo which is ridiculous Gerry said there would be a UI by the centenary of the Easter Rising fat chance!

The border is gone (unless you're a bit swarthy looking sitting on a Belfast to Dublin bus).

The way I see it, if you're smart you'd go down south for your dole and come up north for your doctor. Make partition work for you...

 

[Casually Red]

The Provo's wised up to reality and subsequently spun their defeat as really a victory for catholic equality within the Northern polity, as if that was what they were only ever fighting for.

i dont wish to alarm you but theres an elephant sized hole in your argument and its hurting my eyes

 

[revol68]

i dont wish to alarm you but theres an elephant sized hole in your argument and its hurting my eyes

wising up to reality generally requires you either admit you were previously wrong or pretending you were never really unwise to it, hence the revisionism that presents the Provo's campaign as really just an extension of the Civil Rights campaign ie they have gone with the latter.

 

[N_igma]

Joking aside partition has had a remarkable effect on Irish society I know you try to rise above it in some sort of metaphysical messianic 'I can see past this shit' nonsense you're from the North I'm from the North you can't of ignore the politics of where we're from and it needs to be addressed.

Sometimes I think you suffer from the effect that is known as 'cultural cringe' you have good ideas but you're pretty much the sort of person who goes to Auntie Annie's on a Thursday night lol

 

[Casually Red]

By all accounts Adams and his band of men maneuvered the provos into the peace process almost step by step but let's not overstate it, history doesn't work that way, rather there was a growing weariness within the movement that armed struggle couldn't win and it was this weariness that Adams and co went to work on.
.

Adams admits his secret peace process was already underway behind the backs of his members by 1987 . That was the period of the unprecedented massive arms shipments coming from Libya . The provos most certainly not war weary at that point . Anything but .
This entire process was top down. None of this emanated or originated with the grass roots.

 

[revol68]

Joking aside partition has had a remarkable effect on Irish society I know you try to rise above it in some sort of metaphysical messianic 'I can see past this shit' nonsense you're from the North I'm from the North you can't of ignore the politics of where we're from and it needs to be addressed.

Sometimes I think you suffer from the effect that is known as 'cultural cringe' you have good ideas but you're pretty much the sort of person who goes to Auntie Annie's on a Thursday night lol

Auntie Annie's on a Thursday? I'm no indie prick. More likely in wetherspoons or The Hudson(if the funds are good).

How could you not suffer from cultural cringe coming from the north, you heard our accent on TV, do you not have a sit down shower after watching the nar nars on Hollyoaks?

More seriously, I guess my background meant I've never felt any real connect with any or either community, on the contrary any identity I have has always been based on exclusion from it, hence my nascent nationalism/republicanism (I was 13 or so at the time and thought I was billy big balls wearing celtic shirts into a mostly prod school) gave way pretty quickly, cos reading republican socialist stuff made me realise how ignorant republicans were of the unionist/loyalist working class, at best treating them as passive children, stooges at the hands of the Brits, whose scales would fall from their eyes once the last soldier was sent packing.

 

[Casually Red]

wising up to reality generally requires you either admit you were previously wrong or pretending you were never really unwise to it, hence the revisionism that presents the Provo's campaign as really just an extension of the Civil Rights campaign ie they have gone with the latter.

no revol thats called telling a pack of lies to yourself and others to continue the pretence that youve won

is what that is, the direct opposite of reality. Its to hide from reality at all costs, not wising up to it .

 

[revol68]

Adams admits his secret peace process was already underway behind the backs of his members by 1987 . That was the period of the unprecedented massive arms shipments coming from Libya . The provos most certainly not war weary at that point . Anything but .

Actually on the contrary the promise of the massive arms shipments was used to buoy up the struggle, with many imagining it leading to a mass TET style offensive. Of course it was nonsense, the movement had been compromised well before that, the Brits were one step ahead.

The facts are that as much as many hate Adams within republicanism, most accept that the war is over and couldn't have been won, they might take issue with how it was wound down and the GFA but all but the mental dizzies can see the that they will never have a United Ireland by force.

 

[N_igma]

Auntie Annie's on a Thursday? I'm no indie prick. More likely in wetherspoons or The Hudson(if the funds are good).

How could you not suffer from cultural cringe coming from the north, you heard our accent on TV, do you not have a sit down shower after watching the nar nars on Hollyoaks?

More seriously, I guess my background meant I've never felt any real connect with any or either community, on the contrary any identity I have has always been based on exclusion from it, hence my nascent nationalism/republicanism (I was 13 or so at the time and thought I was billy big balls wearing celtic shirts into a mostly prod school) gave way pretty quickly, cos reading republican socialist stuff made me realise how ignorant republicans were of the unionist/loyalist working class, at best treating them as passive children, stooges at the hands of the Brits, whose scales would fall from their eyes once the last soldier was sent packing.

Understandable you're a half a Jaffa Cake aren't you? I'm from south Armagh which as you know is the heartland of Republicanism but I'm more cute than the majority of people there. It's fair to say that there is a working class Loyalist population who are disaffected with the decline of industrialisation and shit like that but they generally react in a bad way and don't organise unless it's for an Orange Order march down Garvaghy Road. For God and Ulster

 

[revol68]

no revol thats called telling a pack of lies to yourself and others to continue the pretence that youve won

is what that is, the direct opposite of reality. Its to hide from reality at all costs, not wising up to it .

no it's called telling a pack of lies about the past in order to claim you've won because it took you 30 years to wise up to the fact you can't bomb your way to a United Ireland because it's the native Unionist population that are the main obstacle not "British Imperialism".

Or as Anthony McIntyre puts it

"It seems to me that republicans often ignored the evidence available and in the process managed to get the causal factor in the British state presence back to front: they saw unionism as being held in place by Britain rather than seeing Britain as being held in place in Ireland by unionism. British imperialism as it is often termed in republican discourse can manage quite easily without any territorial acquisition in Ireland."

So yeah they've woken up to reality, they just aren't willing to accept they spent 30 years at odds with it, as such their armed struggle needs to be recast as one for civil rights and parity of esteem.

 

[revol68]

Understandable you're a half a Jaffa Cake aren't you? I'm from south Armagh which as you know is the heartland of Republicanism but I'm more cute than the majority of people there. It's fair to say that there is a working class Loyalist population who are disaffected with the decline of industrialisation and shit like that but they generally react in a bad way and don't organise unless it's for an Orange Order march down Garvaghy Road. For God and Ulster

Actually most working class prods don't do that shit, most have just drifted away from the OO, leaving it to the most lumpen. Much as what has happened on the other side with the dissidents recruiting out of a shallower and lets face it lumpen pool than the provos ever had to. The dissidents at present have the leadership quality of 70's loyalists, whilst latter day loyalists have Jamie Bryson and Willie Frazer.

 

[N_igma]

Ha I think we can agree that both sides are in disarray and Willie Frazer provides ultra lulz for all