George Monbiot on "Wales' unreported revolution"

[JimN]

Kinda weird how only you and Gravedigger quote posts in this strange, cack-handed manner.

That's because I haven't the faintest idea what I'm doing with a computer. I must get my 9 year old daughter to teach me.

Oh, and seeing as you sound like you might know: how many signed up members has the SPGB currently got?

As far as I know it's about 400 members.

 

[robbo203]

Given that the SPGB (very small group) declare themselves to be in opposition to all other parties - since they are the only true socialists - then the working class (vastly bigger group) is dependent on them and them alone for the revelation of that truth. Not just vanguardist but quasi-religious as well.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

You didnt really follow my argument, did you?

Actually the exactly opposite is the case! For socialism to happen in SPGB terms the SPGB is totally dependent on the working class coming to accept socialist ideas. It refuses to adopt a leadership position i.e. to lead a working class that is not socialist minded ,and when the working class is socialist minded the question of vangardism disppears of its own accord anyway since in this case it is the majority emancipating itself, not a minority trying to emancipate a majority.

As for the bit about "revelation of the truth" dont you believe that what you say is true and why would that not make you a vanguardist in your terms?

 

[agricola]

Has Urban been invaded by SPGB? If so, I prefer when Popbitch did it.

 

[two sheds]

Look butchersapron, the members of the SPGB are just a bunch of workers, some admittedly with beards some without (the women), who share a common goal of socialism.

This i admit i'm now finding confusing. We have Gravediggers above saying "Unlike the left wing we find no need to lie, be deceitful, manipulate or condescending." and yet you say you are socialist. Enlighten me .

 

[JimN]

You may have missed gravediggaz post in which he responded to my probing about the SPGB casting themselves in the role of techers to the w/c by saying that they recognised, along with Marx, that even the educators need educating - placing the party directly in the role of 'the educators'. My question is why does he view them as having that role? How?

That itself is a classic restatement of the vanguardist postion that says it's ok because the exists a dialectical relation ship between the party and the class.

Oh I see. I shouldn't have stuck my nose in.

Personally, I don't know what all this teaching and educating business is all about. At best an unfortunate choice of words. I suppose words change their implications over time, like 'propaganda'. Anyway, it's just putting the ideas across as far as I'm concerned. It's not teaching, preaching, educating or whatever.

By the way I've never heard anyone associated with the SPGB say anything like "a dialectical relationship between the party and the class". Sounds to me like a contrived, leninist term for shafting the workers.

 

[robbo203]

No it's not, it's merely disguised and turned into an educational function of the party. You're already there at the end of the path calling people to come and join you - that's a crude summation of the parties relationship with the class. We've found the end and the means, no one comes to the father but through me. It's a soft-vanguardism rather then the open hard version some orthodox groups still cling to, but it's based on the same assumptions all the same - the self-selecting party seeing further and longer than the mass of the w/c. You just draw different organisational conclusions, rather than the party having to lead the w/c by the hand to that end point you're there already beckoning them towards you - yoo! hoo!.

Working class self-activity in this model becomes mere formal agreement with the SPGB on what the path is and where it leads. It's the other side of the openly vanguardist coin. There's no conception of the class identifying its own needs, and its own methods to reach them. It's anemic 2nd international beardism and it's drowning in the 21st century.

I think your argument is flawed. Even if it were true what you say about the SPGB suggesting that socialism can only come through the way it recommends - and I think your claim is a bit of a caricature - this still does not make their postition vangardist, soft or hard.

I come back to my original point. The SPGB totally rejects the idea that socialism can somehow be imposed on a population that does not want or understand, it flatly refuses to lead workers to socialism and has consistently argued throoughout its entire existence - 106 years if Im correct - that the great majority of workers have got to achieve socialism for themselves and the SPGB is just a tool for that purpose.


How by any reasonable yardstick can that possibly be construed as vanguardism?

 

[butchersapron]

Every single left party - trots included says exactly that don't they?

 

[Gravediggers]

Which reflects very poorly on the quality of your recruits; but at least shows a willingness to share the responsibility for enduring failure.

Louis MacNeice

Are you related to Julie Birchall? For your dismissive sarcasm reminds me so much of her hopeless attempts at useless 'thoughts for the day'. Never mind lets give you a reply so you can continue to masquerade has a failed journalist whose been put out to grass.

All new members are well aware there are no leaders in the SPGB. Being the Socialist Party - and unlike other party's who dare to use that name - to ensure only socialists become members every applicant is examined by the members of the Branch they have chosen to join on their knowledge of the socialist case. It is rather foolish to have non-socialists joining a socialist organisation.

The left wing on the other hand are notorious for accepting members at their word. and consequently resulting in revolving doors becoming common practice.

 

[phildwyer]

to ensure only socialists become members every applicant is examined by the members of the Branch they have chosen to join on their knowledge of the socialist case.

Do you examine your voters too?

 

[Gravediggers]

I have never once read or heard Buick take such a disparaging view of the working class or such an elevated view of the role of your party as you have here. Nor have i ever seen him put forward such clunky mechanical 2nd international style thinking.

Well you will have to wait for comrade Buick to reply to that wont you. You cant expect me to reply to something he may have said, or done when he's responsible for his own actions. But I do agree that comrade Buick is much better at expressing the party case than myself. We both put that down to the quality of the education we respectively received, which on my part improved immensely once I joined the party, although I can still get a bit clunky at times and reflect my s. wales valley upbringing. It would be a poor world if it were no for our individual characteristics.

 

[editor]

Are you related to Julie Birchall? For your dismissive sarcasm reminds me so much of her hopeless attempts at useless 'thoughts for the day'.

Bit rich you calling someone "dismissive," no?

How many signed up members make up the "we" you've been speaking for?

 

[Gravediggers]

I've asked her to stop.

So, how many signed up members have you currently got?

Does the size of the membership really matter in contrast to the quality of the message?

"One man with an idea in his head is in danger of being considered a madman; two men with the same idea in common may be foolish, but hardly mad; ten men sharing an idea begin to act, a hundred draw attention as fanatics a thousand and society begins to tremble, a hundred thousand and there is war abroad, and why only a hundred thousand? Why not a hundred million and peace upon the earth? You and I who agree together, it is we who have to answer that question." William Morris

 

[Gravediggers]

Bit rich you calling someone "dismissive," no?

How many signed up members make up the "we" you've been speaking for?

At the last count 327.

 

[Gravediggers]

I think you've just demonstrated admirably that there's nothing left. From proudly boasting that the SPGB has been in existence for over a hundred years, you're reduced to quibbling about whether a few pamphlets is a valid contribution or not.

In between making grandiose pronouncements to redefine terms in a way that suits you so that your precious theories can stand unchallenged, that is. And I think you've probably scored a few own goals right there too.

If I were a working class person, and I was reading what you're writing here, I'd feel, above all, patronised. So I think your organisation's grand scheme has fallen at the first hurdle. And appears to have continued doing so for...ooh, over a century .

So you are not a member of the working class which means you are a patronising troll.

 

[Gravediggers]

The sad thing is that these "interventions" will probably described as "smashing the forces of reaction" in a couple of years.

Grow up we simply call it 'putting the party case'.

 

[cesare]

Are you related to Julie Birchall? For your dismissive sarcasm reminds me so much of her hopeless attempts at useless 'thoughts for the day'. Never mind lets give you a reply so you can continue to masquerade has a failed journalist whose been put out to grass.

All new members are well aware there are no leaders in the SPGB. Being the Socialist Party - and unlike other party's who dare to use that name - to ensure only socialists become members every applicant is examined by the members of the Branch they have chosen to join on their knowledge of the socialist case. It is rather foolish to have non-socialists joining a socialist organisation.

The left wing on the other hand are notorious for accepting members at their word. and consequently resulting in revolving doors becoming common practice.

Is there a written test or summat?

 

[editor]

At the last count 327.

Why so few? You would have thought that after all those years you would have managed a slightly bigger figure. Why do you think so few people are interested?

So you are not a member of the working class which means you are a patronising troll.

So you count yourself as a member of the working class, yes?

Seeing as you're already telling people here who is and who isn't a member of the working class, could you post up your definition, so I can see where I fit in, please?

Ta.

 

[Gravediggers]

Sweden and the US both run capitalism. Are they no different?

No. If there is any difference you have noticed please post.

 

[editor]

Does the size of the membership really matter in contrast to the quality of the message?

If the message is honest, strong and true, I would have thought people would be flocking in their droves to join up.

But that doesn't appear to be the case. Why is that, do you think?

 

[cesare]

If the message is honest, strong and true, I would have thought people would be flocking in their droves to join up.

But that doesn't appear to be the case. Why is that, do you think?

They possibly are flocking, but the exam questions are too hard

 

[JimN]

This i admit i'm now finding confusing. We have Gravediggers above saying "Unlike the left wing we find no need to lie, be deceitful, manipulate or condescending." and yet you say you are socialist. Enlighten me .

I suppose conventionally the left wing and right wing both accept the basic principles of the capitalist system, but disagree about the extent that the state should intervene in the market. That is, both wings accept a system of commodity production for profit. A class society with wages, profits, money, markets, the state etc. The SPGB would include all the so-called Communist countries in this category, defining them as state-capitalist where the private capitalist class was replaced by a political/bureaucratic elite, but the basic features of capitalism remained.

In contrast to this, the SPGB sees socialism as a worldwide classless society (which has not previously existed) of common ownership (not private or state), production to meet needs (not profit) and real democratic control (no state, political leaders, government, but full participation in decision making by the population). They don't see this society as fitting into the left/right spectrum.

 

[Gravediggers]

I'd sure as hell be voting Plaid if I lived in Wales, and I ain't Welsh.

Well you still have a choice to vote for one of the other parties they are all nationalists, except for the SPGB!

 

[Gravediggers]

Don't fuck about with user quotes please. Thanks.

Is this a game of three smacks and you are off, or restricted, because she has done it again!!!!!

 

[Gravediggers]

Every single left party - trots included says exactly that don't they?

Ah but we do not identify ourselves with the left wing of capitalism. Indeed I implied that in a previous post to Editor.

 

[butchersapron]

Ah but we do not identify ourselves with the left wing of capitalism. Indeed I implied that in a previous post to Editor.

So what? They say exactly what you do - that doesn't make it true in either case.

 

[chilango]

I don't know about GD, but the former poster known as Neprimerimye is a member of a party that quite literally has three members.

There ought to be a prize or something.

Really? I got the impression he was moving bac towards the orbit of the SWs. Just an impression mind.

 

[Gravediggers]

Is there a written test or summat?

Thanks for asking. Its not a test but an examination of the applicants knowledge of the case for socialism. Its entirely up to the applicant concerned if they would rather complete the written or oral. I took the written and found it very reassuring to express my views and feelings to a set of questions which exactly reflected my own knowledge of class struggle and working class experiences.

 

[cesare]

Thanks for asking. Its not a test but an examination of the applicants knowledge of the case for socialism. Its entirely up to the applicant concerned if they would rather complete the written or oral. I took the written and found it very reassuring to express my views and feelings to a set of questions which exactly reflected my own knowledge of class struggle and working class experiences.

Blimey. So there really is an entrance exam.

 

[Gravediggers]

So what? They say exactly what you do - that doesn't make it true in either case.

I entirely agree with you, but what makes it true is not just what say but also what you actually do. In this regard the left are just a bunch of toerags.

 

[chilango]

Wow. How many squeegies are posting on this thread?

I have no problems with them, But they not coming across well here, which is a shame.