George Monbiot on "Wales' unreported revolution"

[Proper Tidy]

I refer other readers and contributors to the nature of the replies from my opponents on here. In particular, the insults and the failure to actually address my points with reasoned argument. I need say little more.

If you cannot debate with me, then the smart thing for you would be to ignore me.

By insulting me, you merely reveal yourselves for what you are. But please do continue...it is only at your own expense, not mine.

Okay cuntybollocks

 

[butchersapron]

It's not tommy it's really really not. How do they insert the lack of self-awareness chip nowadays

 

[Proper Tidy]

What I find quite charming is that each one who comes along is even more obnoxious than the last. Must be some sort of dreamers relay.

 

[butchersapron]

What I find quite charming is that each one who comes along is even more obnoxious than the last. Must be some sort of dreamers relay.

There's a very decent SPGBer on here whose keeping very quiet...

 

[Proper Tidy]

There's a very decent SPGBer on here whose keeping very quiet...

I've met a few SPGB'ers down the years and they always seemed pleasant enough. This must be the SPGB Youth or something. Internet Intervention Squad perhaps.

 

[butchersapron]

Don't fuck with the IIS! Buzz! Buzz!

 

[Proper Tidy]

Don't fuck with the IIS! Buzz! Buzz!

Still, it's nice that they are branching out from the pamphlet racket...

 

[TomR77]

I understand this far batter than you, it's precisely why you're isolated and have no grounding in the real world anymore. There's no ladder between your utopian socialism (as slagged off by Marx) and the real world. You might as well be playing fucking lego.

The social system I support is not utopian. The only utopian dreamer around here is yourself, and I will explain why.

A socialist society would have problems, and not just those left by capitalism. It would have its own problems. Socialism is simply a workable alternative to capitalism. It can only happen with a population which understands socialism and wants socialism. That is the clear and simple truth.

More funding for the NHS will not help bring socialism about any more than it will bring a hurricane or help England win The Ashes. You know this. You know it because it is a matter of historical fact. Please do share some more of your wonderful reforms with us. I will be more than delighted to be shown why and how they bring us all closer to your utopia.

The reason you want more funding for the NHS is because, ultimately, you believe in a utopia. You are the dreamer, not me. You want to make the system nicer for workers. Nicer capitalism is not socialism. I would respect you more if you admitted that.

 

[chilango]

An utter disregard for the mechanics of social change. Even the spontaneists had/have some idea as to the sorts of material factors and actions that might create the conditions for things to happen.

 

[butchersapron]

You lot are crap. It's so obvious that you're just using a 100 years worth of 'putting the case' rather than responding to anything. It's not debate, it's insulting. It's like a pro-forma letter from an MP. It's just not politics - any more than an opticians eye-test chart is.

 

[TomR77]

Okay cuntybollocks

Once again, I refer other readers and contributors to this comment, and others, and to the fact that the majority of responses to my posts do not address the points I make, and are largely ad hominen in content.

Please do carry on insulting and bullying me. I am sure it will entertain some. I am equally sure others will recognise in your contributors your true nature, and feel the disgust that I do at your behaviour.

 

[butchersapron]

An utter disregard for the mechanics of social change. Even the spontaneists had/have some idea as to the sorts of material factors and actions that might create the conditions for things to happen.

The conditions are already known - formal agreement with the case as put by the SPGB.

 

[Proper Tidy]

The social system I support is not utopian. The only utopian dreamer around here is yourself, and I will explain why.

A socialist society would have problems, and not just those left by capitalism. It would have its own problems. Socialism is simply a workable alternative to capitalism. It can only happen with a population which understands socialism and wants socialism. That is the clear and simple truth.

More funding for the NHS will not help bring socialism about any more than it will bring a hurricane or help England win The Ashes. You know this. You know it because it is a matter of historical fact. Please do share some more of your wonderful reforms with us. I will be more than delighted to be shown why and how they bring us all closer to your utopia.

The reason you want more funding for the NHS is because, ultimately, you believe in a utopia. You are the dreamer, not me. You want to make the system nicer for workers. Nicer capitalism is not socialism. I would respect you more if you admitted that.

You still miss the point.

By employing a dual strategy - to push for immediate demands that will improve the conditions for the working class in the here and now whilst making it clear that the only road to emancipation is through revolution leading to socialism (and I would advocate transitional demands for this purpose) you are actually demonstrating to workers the benefits of socialism. Whereas just dishing out pamphlets and being sanctimonious to the very people that you should be seeking to win over will leave you in the miniscule ghetto that you have been in since 1904.

You would have thought the fact you have achieved nothing in over a century and are barely into treble figures might have caused the penny to drop.

 

[chilango]

It's blind faith. That's what it is.

 

[butchersapron]

Once again, I refer other readers and contributors to this comment, and others, and to the fact that the majority of responses to my posts do not address the points I make, and are largely ad hominen in content.

Please do carry on insulting and bullying me. I am sure it will entertain some. I am equally sure others will recognise in your contributors your true nature, and feel the disgust that I do at your behaviour.

Shall we put it to the vote?

 

[Proper Tidy]

Once again, I refer other readers and contributors to this comment, and others, and to the fact that the majority of responses to my posts do not address the points I make, and are largely ad hominen in content.

Please do carry on insulting and bullying me. I am sure it will entertain some. I am equally sure others will recognise in your contributors your true nature, and feel the disgust that I do at your behaviour.

No worries twatmonkey

 

[chilango]

The conditions are already known - formal agreement with the case as put by the SPGB.

Ah yes. Silly me.

 

[two sheds]

I refer other readers and contributors to the nature of the replies from my opponents on here. In particular, the insults and the failure to actually address my points with reasoned argument. I need say little more.

If you cannot debate with me, then the smart thing for you would be to ignore me.

By insulting me, you merely reveal yourselves for what you are. But please do continue...it is only at your own expense, not mine.

Fair do's but Gravediggers did come in here first and call everyone a liar and it sort of went downhill after that.

Next will be "Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help, help I'm being repressed".

 

[TomR77]

You lot are crap. It's so obvious that you're just using a 100 years worth of 'putting the case' rather than responding to anything. It's not debate, it's insulting. It's like a pro-forma letter from an MP. It's just not politics - any more than an opticians eye-test chart is.

You say all this, yet you have not responded to my points. I ask you to list the reforms you propose that will help bring about socialism, and explain why this will be the case and how it will happen.

I contend that while you may be well-intentioned, what you are actually doing is campaigning for capitalism, not socialism.

 

[chilango]

Once again, I refer other readers and contributors to this comment, and others, and to the fact that the majority of responses to my posts do not address the points I make, and are largely ad hominen in content.

Please do carry on insulting and bullying me. I am sure it will entertain some. I am equally sure others will recognise in your contributors your true nature, and feel the disgust that I do at your behaviour.

You think PT's being insulting?

This is only the internets. There's some proper bastards out there in the real world.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

The social system I support is not utopian. The only utopian dreamer around here is yourself, and I will explain why.

A socialist society would have problems, and not just those left by capitalism. It would have its own problems. Socialism is simply a workable alternative to capitalism. It can only happen with a population which understands socialism and wants socialism. That is the clear and simple truth.

More funding for the NHS will not help bring socialism about any more than it will bring a hurricane or help England win The Ashes. You know this. You know it because it is a matter of historical fact. Please do share some more of your wonderful reforms with us. I will be more than delighted to be shown why and how they bring us all closer to your utopia.

The reason you want more funding for the NHS is because, ultimately, you believe in a utopia. You are the dreamer, not me. You want to make the system nicer for workers. Nicer capitalism is not socialism. I would respect you more if you admitted that.

how much do you like putting words in other people's mouths? Stating tired opinion as fact and claiming to be a scientist (the fact that physics has moved on from Newton speaks volumes about your understanding of science as wellas your historical 'stuckness') is not an explanation; at least it is not the explanation you claimit to be. However, it is risible; so I think I'll stick with the pointing and laughing option. Go on Tom give us another one.

Louis MacNeice

 

[two sheds]

It's blind faith. That's what it is.

A fine band.

 

[butchersapron]

You say all this, yet you have not responded to my points. I ask you to list the reforms you propose that will help bring about socialism, and explain why this will be the case and how it will happen.

I contend that while you may be well-intentioned, what you are actually doing is campaigning for capitalism, not socialism.

Ask what you want, I haven't made a case for reformism - that's the cardboard cut-out your already written answers are replying to.

You can do this game with the SPGB if you've know them long enough - each letter corresponds to a position and a critique:

a
d
t
i
e
g
f

and so on.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I contend that while you may be well-intentioned, what you are actually doing is campaigning for capitalism, not socialism.

And I contend sir, that you are an errant fool; now what do you say to that young fella me lad?

Louis (getting into the historical re-enactment swing of things) MacNeice

 

[butchersapron]

t
w
a
t
s

 

[TomR77]

You still miss the point.

By employing a dual strategy - to push for immediate demands that will improve the conditions for the working class in the here and now whilst making it clear that the only road to emancipation is through revolution leading to socialism (and I would advocate transitional demands for this purpose) you are actually demonstrating to workers the benefits of socialism. Whereas just dishing out pamphlets and being sanctimonious to the very people that you should be seeking to win over will leave you in the miniscule ghetto that you have been in since 1904.

You would have thought the fact you have achieved nothing in over a century and are barely into treble figures might have caused the penny to drop.

I am very sorry, but I am not missing the point at all. I addressed this point very clearly, and you responded by insulting me. So far, you have called me 'cuntybollocks', a 'fuckwit' and a 'twatmonkey'. That is your response to the S.P.G.B. case. When the obvious flaw in your position is exposed, you insult people.

Once again, by advocating immediate demands, you are doing absolutely nothing to demonstrate to workers the benefits of socialism. To the contrary, you are demonstrating to workers the benefits of capitalism. In the process, you are also putting across a confused argument, in which the reformist tendency will naturally predominate. That demolishes your argument, succinctly.

If you disagree, then the best way to continue this debate would be for you to develop your argument by illustrating some of the reforms you would campaign for and pass, and the whys and hows of this bringing us closer to socialism. Do you think you can manage that? Or are insults easier?

 

[two sheds]

No I've enjoyed this. I think we should have more threads on Plaid.

 

[butchersapron]

How high can they crank this - are there any more pompous SPGB lurkers ready to make the case in public? (Please please let there be)

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I am very sorry, but I am not missing the point at all. I addressed this point very clearly, and you responded by insulting me. So far, you have called me 'cuntybollocks', a 'fuckwit' and a 'twatmonkey'. That is your response to the S.P.G.B. case. When the obvious flaw in your position is exposed, you insult people.

Once again, by advocating immediate demands, you are doing absolutely nothing to demonstrate to workers the benefits of socialism. To the contrary, you are demonstrating to workers the benefits of capitalism. In the process, you are also putting across a confused argument, in which the reformist tendency will naturally predominate. That demolishes your argument, succinctly.

If you disagree, then the best way to continue this debate would be for you to develop your argument by illustrating some of the reforms you would campaign for and pass, and the whys and hows of this bringing us closer to socialism. Do you think you can manage that? Or are insults easier?

No that's his response to your stupid, arrorgant, dishonesty; a stupid, arrorgant, dishonesty you seem determined to carry on with. Stop putting words in people's mouths; try responding to what they actually post, rather than to what you'd like them to be posting.

Louis MacNeice

 

[TomR77]

No that's his response to your stupid, arrorgant, dishonesty; a stupid, arrorgant, dishonesty you seem determined to carry on with. Stop putting words in people's mouths; try responding to what they actually post, rather than to what you'd like them to be posting.

Louis MacNeice

Again, I refer other readers and posters to this and other comments which are ad hominen and fail to address my points. Others will draw their own conclusions as to the nature, motives and intentions of those who post these remarks.