Gender idealism?

[existentialist]

Sadly most wouldn't really get this without some explaining to be done. However, it seems that dialectical materialism based on this part of the analogy and not an economic one, would deem social transitioning as idealist.

Isn't the whole point of an analogy that it provides an easy-to-grasp metaphor for the topic? I'd say that if the analogy you're using needs "some explaining to be done", then you're either using the wrong analogy, or it's based on some mistaken notions.

 

[existentialist]

I knew I shouldn't have brought up Hegel yesterday.

Serves you right for eating him.

 

[NoXion]

Is my viewpoint not welcome? I thought we had the freedom of conscience to be expressed. Well, I can talk about it with a trans person but most of the time, it won't go well. A minority of trans people would actually agree with what I would say while the rest would see it as "transmedicalism" which violates their "idealism".

They're not bothered by their "idealism" being violated. They're disinclined to listen because, whether you realise it or not, you're coming across as someone who doesn't recognise them as a person. There's nothing idealist about some people turning out differently than what wider society expected of them, that's just how it works for us as the highly developed social animals we are.

 

[Yugoslav]

Isn't the whole point of an analogy that it provides an easy-to-grasp metaphor for the topic? I'd say that if the analogy you're using needs "some explaining to be done", then you're either using the wrong analogy, or it's based on some mistaken notions.

But if the analogy is meant to be easy, why are a minority of trans people accepting of this? It is the material reality that they must face and use this to join with the Marxist-Leninist cause and they will get free healthcare and free medical transition in a socialist state.

 

[Yugoslav]

They're not bothered by their "idealism" being violated. They're disinclined to listen because, whether you realise it or not, you're coming across as someone who doesn't recognise them as a person. There's nothing idealist about some people turning out differently than what wider society expected of them, that's just how it works for us as the highly developed social animals we are.

However, I would recognize them as the desired person. You see, I am in favor of medical transition so there is recognition.

 

[existentialist]

Well, I do have experience of having a biological male body. My chemical reaction of gender dysphoria never really occurred in my life. Not everyone is bound to this, hence we believe that it is most likely some form of chemical interaction caused by a set of material conditions within the brain that result in the "transgender idea", hence the need to "transition".

Who is this "we" of whom you speak?

I think that what you are stating is a phenomenally reductive interpretation of human psychology.

 

[Yugoslav]

Who is this "we" of whom you speak?

The "we" of whom I call upon is the materialist. Specifically, dialectical materialist "we".

 

[existentialist]

But if the analogy is meant to be easy, why are a minority of trans people accepting of this? It is the material reality that they must face and use this to join with the Marxist-Leninist cause and they will get free healthcare and free medical transition in a socialist state.

Perhaps because it's an analogy which does not mirror their lived experience. And, if you go around referring to transgender people as "it", you're stuffed before you even start.

The biggest problem I have with this whole notion of framing human situations in terms of political and ideological dogma is that it seems to attempt to cram the nuance and diversity of human experience into a very narrow pigeonhole. Which, considering that the lived experience of trans people in particular is one of being crammed into very narrow gender pigeonholes, is not going to end well.

 

[InArduisFouette]

Isn't the Spiked thing and the guy, once formerly a magazine called "Living Marxism" which I remember reading that it denied the Srebrenica genocide (supporting Serbian chauvinism)?

yep , and Spiked! is known for transphobia and pseudo intellectual beard stroking on the topic

that said at various points in time numerous claimed ot be socialist and/or communist groups have deemed homosexuality and Being trans as borugeouis distractiosn and also there;s the whole fertility fetish thing where both 'communist' and 'fascist' ideology seems to meet about praising and rewarding those women who do the important work of breeding plenty of loyal subjects for the glory of the revolution etc

 

[InArduisFouette]

Is my viewpoint not welcome? I thought we had the freedom of conscience to be expressed. Well, I can talk about it with a trans person but most of the time, it won't go well. A minority of trans people would actually agree with what I would say while the rest would see it as "transmedicalism" which violates their "idealism".

and here you are trying to explain why you , a cisgender person with no lived experience , are more correct on the topic than transgender people who have lived experience of Gender Incongruence, Gender Dysphoria and for many social and /or medical transition

this is not a topic to sit around stroking one's beard about ... this is a topic where people are actively being killed by the rtehtoric of those it doesn't actually affect in any way shape or form .

 

[NoXion]

But if the analogy is meant to be easy, why are a minority of trans people accepting of this? It is the material reality that they must face and use this to join with the Marxist-Leninist cause and they will get free healthcare and free medical transition in a socialist state.

The personal/social component of transitioning is just as important as the medical one. Maybe even more so, given that non-medical transitioning is a thing.

However, I would recognize them as the desired person. You see, I am in favor of medical transition so there is recognition.

A medical procedure elected by someone else has nothing to do with recognition by other people. That's their responsibility.

You see, this is why you keep hearing about transmedicalism. You're making your recognition contingent on medical procedures taking place when that is entirely unnecessary. Transitioning involves more than that.

 

[InArduisFouette]

Perhaps because it's an analogy which does not mirror their lived experience. And, if you go around referring to transgender people as "it", you're stuffed before you even start.

The biggest problem I have with this whole notion of framing human situations in terms of political and ideological dogma is that it seems to attempt to cram the nuance and diversity of human experience into a very narrow pigeonhole. Which, considering that the lived experience of trans people in particular is one of being crammed into very narrow gender pigeonholes, is not going to end well.

you are spot sperm producing gonadal tissue ( i.e. Bollock) on there...

 

[Yugoslav]

yep , and Spiked! is known for transphobia and pseudo intellectual beard stroking on the topic

that said at various points in time numerous claimed ot be socialist and/or communist groups have deemed homosexuality and Being trans as borugeouis distractiosn and also there;s the whole fertility fetish thing where both 'communist' and 'fascist' ideology seems to meet about praising and rewarding those women who do the important work of breeding plenty of loyal subjects for the glory of the revolution etc

Disagree with homosexuality being "bourgeois" because it's more of a Stalin thing.

Three decades ago, trans rights movement was actually sticking to the queer liberation until the Internet came and in 2020s, we see the trans activists (either non-trans and trans) nowadays saying how wearing opposite gender clothes apparently makes someone "fully trans". That is quite a deviation from the LGBT movement.

 

[Yugoslav]

You see, this is why you keep hearing about transmedicalism. You're making your recognition contingent on medical procedures taking place when that is entirely unnecessary. Transitioning involves more than that.

Why bother risking waiting? Post-transition transgenders are more happy than pre-transition because they got their affirming care.

 

[InArduisFouette]

Disagree with homosexuality being "bourgeois" because it's more of a Stalin thing.

Three decades ago, trans rights movement was actually sticking to the queer liberation until the Internet came and in 2020s, we see the trans activists (either non-trans and trans) nowadays saying how wearing opposite gender clothes apparently makes someone "fully trans". That is quite a deviation from the LGBT movement.

only 43 posts before you come out with your true colours ...

Was the LGB alliance 'Conference' , even with the crickets, that much of a let down you have to come on Urban and start stirring up shit ...

 

[Yugoslav]

only 43 posts before you come out with your true colours ...

Was the LGB alliance 'Conference' , even with the crickets, that much of a let down you have to come on Urban and start stirring up shit ...

Alright. Calm down with the homophobia here. For a hetero like me, it is homophobic to see homosexual people as "bourgeois". There is nothing much idealistic about them. It is the transgender activism that has delved into the hyper-idealism. I don't think being trans is just wearing opposite-gender clothing.

 

[InArduisFouette]

Alright. Calm down with the homophobia here. For a hetero like me, it is homophobic to see homosexual people as "bourgeois". There is nothing much idealistic about them. It is the transgender activism that has delved into the hyper-idealism. I don't think being trans is just wearing opposite-gender clothing.

so at best you are a beard stroking tourist and at worse you are a Furedi style 'intellectual' transphobe ...

 

[NoXion]

Three decades ago, trans rights movement was actually sticking to the queer liberation until the Internet came and in 2020s, we see the trans activists (either non-trans and trans) nowadays saying how wearing opposite gender clothes apparently makes someone "fully trans". That is quite a deviation from the LGBT movement.

"Deviations" were always bound to happen as issues relating to LGBT rights and struggles became more mainstream. Is it really that hard to believe that "being trans" turns out to be a lot more complicated and more of a spectrum?

As a bisexual man, I have seen non-bisexuals assume that people like me are just going through a phase or are confused or whatever, instead of simply recognising that I can be attracted to both men and women.

Sexuality and gender are deeply personal things, and as such are always going to be shaped by individual experiences.

Why bother risking waiting? Post-transition transgenders are more happy than pre-transition because they got their affirming care.

Because for a lot of trans people, it's not a question of not wanting to do it, it's a question of not having the resources or the access.

 

[Yugoslav]

Because for a lot of trans people, it's not a question of not wanting to do it, it's a question of not having the resources or the access.

Ah. So, it does prove for the dialectical materialism. The ideal gender can only be possible through the fulfilling of material conditions. Perhaps we could band together, start a fund, and donate the money to get the trans people into medical transition. That would help a lot in combating the capitalist healthcare system.

 

[PTK]

But if the analogy is meant to be easy, why are a minority of trans people accepting of this? It is the material reality that they must face and use this to join with the Marxist-Leninist cause and they will get free healthcare and free medical transition in a socialist state.

There is free health care in Britian right now, and Britain is not a socialist state. As far as I know, people can undego transition under the National Health Service. I assume that you live in the USA.

 

[existentialist]

so at best you are a beard stroking tourist and at worse you are a Furedi style 'intellectual' transphobe ...

Furedi gave a lecture at the university I went to. Despite my political and sociological naivete, I thought he was a cunt back then, and nothing I've seen or heard since has persuaded me otherwise.

But then, I expect I'd probably have thought Lenin was a cunt, too.

 

[Yugoslav]

There is free health care in Britian right now, and Britain is not a socialist state. As far as I know, people can undego transition under the National Health Service. I assume that you live in the USA.

Nope. I live in the EX-YU area. So, it is good to see that healthcare is indeed free in Britain. This already satisfies the material condition for an ideal gender of trans people to be met through medical transition.

EDIT - We use the charity to help trans people in the US get medical transition.

 

[kalidarkone]

This is a rather empirical viewpoint.

There is this one example of the apple from Politzer's book.

"Before that it was a green apple; before being a flower, it was a bud. In this way, we shall go back to the condition of the apple tree in spring. The apple has not always been an apple: it has a history. Likewise, it will not remain what it is. If it falls, it will rot, decompose and scatter its seeds, which will, if all goes well, produce a shoot and then a tree. Hence, neither has the apple always been what it is nor will it remain what it is."

If I were to translate this into the view of trans people, the following would be that a trans woman is defined as a human who at first was born a man and then through medical transitioning, became a woman because it was not always a "woman".

It?

 

[InArduisFouette]

It?

hence the less than easy ride the poster has been getting in addition to some of the other somewhat suspect position they had adopted

 

[Yugoslav]

hence the less than easy ride the poster has been getting in addition to some of the other somewhat suspect position they had adopted

What suspect position? Nothing to "suspect" of Marxism-Leninism.

 

[InArduisFouette]

What suspect position? Nothing to "suspect" of Marxism-Leninism.

no, your position with regard to the validity of the experience of Transgender People

plus the fact you've been on the site 3 hours and posted entirely about trans people ...

 

[Yugoslav]

no, your position with regard to the validity of the experience of Transgender People

plus the fact you've been on the site 3 hours and posted entirely about trans people ...

My position has been prevalent long before I came here on this site. Socialism seeks to understand the trans position by simply making free healthcare and giving free medical transition thereby.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

My position has been prevalent long before I came here on this site. Socialism seeks to understand the trans position by simply making free healthcare and giving free medical transition thereby.

I mean that might have been a better place to start than all this abstract stuff about dialectics and apples maybe.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I'll just take you at face value for now and assume you have just turned up and are posting in good faith.

You should know that there have been some very difficult and heated conversations about trans issues here and a number of longstanding contributors (both trans and not) have left because of it.

 

[xenon]

But if the analogy is meant to be easy, why are a minority of trans people accepting of this? It is the material reality that they must face and use this to join with the Marxist-Leninist cause and they will get free healthcare and free medical transition in a socialist state.

Get a proper hobby. Why is formalising a theoretical position about trans people so important when you're never gonna get any where near power or or implement it anyway and all you're doing in the mean time is either upsetting or boring people.