Gaza under attack yet again.

[frogwoman]

I'd add that it is a way of keeping Palestine in our civil discourse, of placing some pressure on those in power and most importantly, allowing us a way of showing solidarity and providing some focus for activity. I mean, we can sit around feeling angry and powerless all we like, but that doesn't help Gaza one iota.

And also if ambassadors keep on being expelled etc and flights canceled Israel may think twice about it's murderous rampages.

 

[hipipol]

You deny that definition of genocide? WTF do you fucking want, fucking Rwanda FFS? Fuck you for doing murdering scumbags a fucking service.

Fucking disgrace of a dissembling hasbara tosser.

Dont think he is hasbara
Just young, uninformed but full of a fierce certainty

 

[frogwoman]

I would say that when genocide views are freely expressed in the media and mainstream politicians and a substantial layer of the population support them I would say there is a strong risk of it happening

 

[agricola]

Nazi racial ideas morally came from the theological concept of predestination or a chosen superior race which Calvin adopted from the Old testament as did Zionism. The British used the same theology to justify slavery and imperialism, the Orange order is a living example of it.

Fascism does not have this concept.

This really is a bit of a nonsense. Nazi racial ideas came from the pseudo-science of Houston Stewart Chamberlain and his considerably denser Germanic followers, rather than ideas of a "chosen people" lifted from the Bible.

As for the British attitude to slavery and indigenous peoples (especially in India), that was always more about money and trade in the first instance; it was only much later when the actual aristocracy took control of those parts of the globe coloured red away from the merchants that they invented the racial superiority (of themselves) as the reason why they were in charge.

Finally fascism - or at least Italian fascism - does have that concept; its just buried in classicism.

 

[Vintage Paw]

And also if ambassadors keep on being expelled etc and flights canceled Israel may think twice about it's murderous rampages.

It's beyond trite to say "money talks" but even with the very specific historical, ideological and cultural issues at play in Israel it certainly still plays a part. It's wrong to think it's the only solution but it's also wrong to overlook its importance.

In other words, I see no reason to oppose BDS.

 

[hipipol]

I would say that when genocide views are freely expressed in the media and mainstream politicians and a substantial layer of the population support them I would say there is a strong risk of it happening

Yes
When people do not feel ashamed to shout "Kill them all", when no one rebukes them, well on the way to such a collective madness

 

[Barking_Mad]

Not genocide?

In 2004, a year before Israel’s unilateral disengagement from the Gaza Strip, Dov Weissglass, éminence grise to Ariel Sharon, explained the initiative’s purpose to an interviewer from Haaretz:

"The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process … And when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with … a [US] presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress … The disengagement is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians."

In 2006 Weissglass was just as frank about Israel’s policy towards Gaza’s 1.8 million inhabitants: ‘The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger.’ He was not speaking metaphorically: it later emerged that the Israeli defence ministry had conducted detailed research on how to translate his vision into reality, and arrived at a figure of 2279 calories per person per day – some 8 per cent less than a previous calculation because the research team had originally neglected to account for ‘culture and experience’ in determining nutritional ‘red lines’.

This wasn’t an academic exercise. After pursuing a policy of enforced integration between 1967 and the late 1980s, Israeli policy shifted towards separation during the 1987-93 uprising, and then fragmentation during the Oslo years. For the Gaza Strip, an area about the size of Greater Glasgow, these changes entailed a gradual severance from the outside world, with the movement of persons and goods into and out of the territory increasingly restricted.

The screws were turned tighter during the 2000-5 uprising, and in 2007 the Gaza Strip was effectively sealed shut. All exports were banned, and just 131 truckloads of foodstuffs and other essential products were permitted entry per day. Israel also strictly controlled which products could and could not be imported. Prohibited items have included A4 paper, chocolate, coriander, crayons, jam, pasta, shampoo, shoes and wheelchairs.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n15/mouin-rabbani/israel-mows-the-lawn

 

[quiquaquo]

This really is a bit of a nonsense. Nazi racial ideas came from the pseudo-science of Houston Stewart Chamberlain and his considerably denser Germanic followers, rather than ideas of a "chosen people" lifted from the Bible.

As for the British attitude to slavery and indigenous peoples (especially in India), that was always more about money and trade in the first instance; it was only much later when the actual aristocracy took control of those parts of the globe coloured red away from the merchants that they invented the racial superiority (of themselves) as the reason why they were in charge.

Finally fascism - or at least Italian fascism - does have that concept; its just buried in classicism.

La Difesa della Razza magazine and the Racial Laws date from 1938 (Year 16 of the Fascist Epoch). While Italian fascism undoubtedly had a racist element to it it was very different to Nazi Germany. Even the infamous and horrible song "Faccetta Nera" has an undertone of a multicultural Italian East Africa.

I have or rather had non white family that passed that period in Italian East Africa and according to them the racism in Kenya was even worse.

(apologies for typos, keyboard has been through dishwasher yesterday)

 

[frogwoman]

Yes
When people do not feel ashamed to shout "Kill them all", when no one rebukes them, well on the way to such a collective madness

'kill all the Arabs'

Not genocide?



http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n15/mouin-rabbani/israel-mows-the-lawn

 

[Kalfindin]

This really is a bit of a nonsense. Nazi racial ideas came from the pseudo-science of Houston Stewart Chamberlain and his considerably denser Germanic followers, rather than ideas of a "chosen people" lifted from the Bible.

As for the British attitude to slavery and indigenous peoples (especially in India), that was always more about money and trade in the first instance; it was only much later when the actual aristocracy took control of those parts of the globe coloured red away from the merchants that they invented the racial superiority (of themselves) as the reason why they were in charge.

Finally fascism - or at least Italian fascism - does have that concept; its just buried in classicism.

Houston Stewart Chamberlain was Calvinist. Im am taking about moral justification. Italian fascism was based on Catholic church originating corporate ideas and ultra nationalism, nothing like Nazism, it was not based totally upon race.


The doctrine of supralapsarian predestination states that God predestined the human race into the elect or saved "master race"....ie a choseN people, and the damned or reprobate i.e. "untermenschen".

In South America there have been mixed race fascist juntas.

 

[agricola]

Houston Stewart Chamberlain was Calvinist. Im am taking about moral justification. Italian fasciam was based on Catholic church originating corporate ideas and ultra nationalism, nothing like Nazism, it was not based totally upon race.

The doctrine of supralapsarian predestination states that God predestined the human race into the elect or saved "master race", and the damned or reprobate i.e. "untermenschen"

Infact in South America there have been mixed race fascist juntas.

You are just picking out one part - the "master / chosen race" bit - and assuming that because you think it was present in Calvinism (in fact its present in all of the Abrahamic religions) that it was the inspiration for the rest of the nonsense that passed Nazi racial thought. It wasnt.

 

[agricola]

La Difesa della Razza magazine and the Racial Laws date from 1938 (Year 16 of the Fascist Epoch). While Italian fascism undoubtedly had a racist element to it it was very different to Nazi Germany. Even the infamous and horrible song "Faccetta Nera" has an undertone of a multicultural Italian East Africa.

I have or rather had non white family that passed that period in Italian East Africa and according to them the racism in Kenya was even worse.

(apologies for typos, keyboard has been through dishwasher yesterday)

Indeed. What I meant though was that Italian fascism was forever harking back to the classical past, when Rome ruled most of the known world - with the obvious conclusion (as Virgil stated) that the world was Rome's (and therefore the fascists).

 

[TopCat]

Fucking horrific.

How much more can the Palestinians in Ghazza take!!!!!!??????

It's not he/she who can inflict the most, but he/she who can suffer the most that will likely endure.

 

[quiquaquo]

Houston Stewart Chamberlain was Calvinist. Im am taking about moral justification. Italian fasciam was based on Catholic church originating corporate ideas and ultra nationalism, nothing like Nazism, it was not based totally upon race.


The doctrine of supralapsarian predestination states that God predestined the human race into the elect or saved "master race", and the damned or reprobate i.e. "untermenschen"

Infact in South America there have been mixed race fascist juntas.

True. Fascist Italo Balbo was allegedly killed for his refusal of anti-semitism, Mussolini himself had a Jewish mistress and then there was Amedeo Guillet.

 

[Kalfindin]

You are just picking out one part - the "master / chosen race" bit - and assuming that because you think it was present in Calvinism (in fact its present in all of the Abrahamic religions) that it was the inspiration for the rest of the nonsense that passed Nazi racial thought. It wasnt.

Thats the basis of Calvinism, and Calvinism is the basis of German Protestantism, Im not assuming, its a fact.

The concept of presdestination is not present Islam or Catholicism, you are posting nonsense. Muslims dont belive they are some kind of chosen special tribe.

 

[quiquaquo]

Indeed. What I meant though was that Italian fascism was forever harking back to the classical past, when Rome ruled most of the known world - with the obvious conclusion (as Virgil stated) that the world was Rome's (and therefore the fascists).

"Roma Caput Mundi" was still visible often in the 70's.

 

[laptop]

the "master / chosen race" bit [is] present in all of the Abrahamic religions

TBF, Islam almost got rid of it. Chosen religion, yes. But not racial, in practice, at all.

(Up until the installation of the House of Saud, anyway.)

 

[TopCat]

They can't support it, but it's the only way to peace.

And to be horribly Machiavellian, looking at South Africa for an example, it's not like the black South Africans got all the money, best land and housing after apartheid is it, even though they are the huge majority? It makes me feel wrong even writing that, but after a lot more bloodshed, that's how I imagine it might play out.

There is some similarity. In South Africa a new enriched middle class connected to the ANC emerged who sold out Joe Slovo and the black majority for a few shekels. Look at the so called Palestinian Authority, they work hand in hand in the West bank with the Israeli's to round up dissidents. Utter scum the lot of them.

 

[quiquaquo]

TBF, Islam almost got rid of it. Chosen religion, yes. But not racial, in practice, at all.

(Up until the installation of the House of Saud, anyway.)

The Prophet's Last Sermon states: "All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves."

 

[TopCat]

I don't get my morals from religious tracts.

 

[teqniq]

Vaughn Wallace ‏@vaughnwallace 2h
An eerie, cinematic frame by @OliverWeiken looking out on #Gaza mosque destroyed by Israeli airstrike overnight. pic.twitter.com/TSaSAhF3Ce

 

[quiquaquo]

I don't get my morals from religious tracts.

"Tits, fanny and Millwall" for you then?

 

[SovietArmy]

No sanctions for Israel for killing sleeping babies. What world can do. Fascist wankers.

 

[Kalfindin]

I don't get my morals from religious tracts.

Where do you get them from ? The Tv ?

 

[agricola]

Thats the basis of Calvinism, and Calvinism is the basis of German Protestantism, Im not assuming, its a fact.

The concept of presdestination is not present Islam or Catholicism, you are posting nonsense. Muslims dont belive they are some kind of chosen special tribe.

Have you considered advising the Vatican of this? I think they are operating under the impression that predestination (albeit of a less logical* form than the Protestant use of the word) does exist. Predestination is also present in Islam, albeit in a bit of a disguise because there God already claims to know what you are going to do.

* at least if you believe in that sort of thing

 

[killer b]

I don't get my morals from religious tracts.

tbf, you probably do to a great extent.

 

[agricola]

TBF, Islam almost got rid of it. Chosen religion, yes. But not racial, in practice, at all.

(Up until the installation of the House of Saud, anyway.)

Perhaps, though in the early part at least there were distinctions between Arab and non-Arab.

 

[Kalfindin]

Have you considered advising the Vatican of this? I think they are operating under the impression that predestination (albeit of a less logical* form than the Protestant use of the word) does exist. Predestination is also present in Islam, albeit in a bit of a disguise because there God already claims to know what you are going to do.

* at least if you believe in that sort of thing

Catholicism does not believe in predestination, infact people in the past were burned as heretics for promoting such an idea, its a religion of proselytism ie winning converts like Islam.Its not based on being born into a particular tribe and grace, ie following rituals alone for salvation, which is what predestination is.

 

[goldenecitrone]

tbf, you probably do to a great extent.

And where do religious tracts come from? Aren't they just written forms of pre-existing morality in an idealised form.

 

[TopCat]

tbf, you probably do to a great extent.

No I don't, the idea is insulting in the extreme.