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Gaza under attack yet again.

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Funny how those who condemn ISIS's persecution of Christians and call for global protests against them stay silent when Palestinian Christians in Gaza suffer indiscriminate violence and oppression. Almost as if some are keen to turn it into a Muslim/Jewish issue only.
 
Top journalist Jon Snow just told Hamas guy that Israel is only killing people because Hamas keeps attacking them. (!)

This is a pathetic misrepresentation of Israel's strategy.
I should imagine he's just feeding the debate - I reckon its not his views but will be some of the viewers, so its a pertinent question.
 
He was really very bullish about it.

On the one hand, I thought perhaps he was acting under pressure, after the complaints were made about his youtube video (complaints that reporters shouldn't give personal opinions like that - and indeed there are apparently ofcom rules in place which is why he had to put it on youtube and not on air). The typical reporter strategy is usually to feign rigorous questioning against people they don't necessarily want to question in that way, in order to provide a semblance of 'balance'.

But then I thought, the way he was doing it I actually believe he was being genuine in his anger. I can understand that anger - even though I believe it's misjudged to channel it at those who only exist as a result of oppression from a far more powerful oppressor. I can understand the frustration - his argument that if they only stopped firing they'd call Israel's bluff, in a way - and if it really was the case that Israel wants to kill them all and destroy Gaza then it would help the case against Israel if they continued doing so after Hamas stopped firing rockets. I think that's where his frustration came from. But, as I said, in the battle for hearts and minds, that sort of thing is better said behind closed doors, and condemnation should be reserved solely for the powerful oppressor.

I've heard that from people, saying that hamas should stop firing rockets then 'if israel starts up the world can step in and put a stop to it '
 
Not to make light of a truly horrendous situation.However over the last few days watching Paul Mason he has the look of a person who has half a mind to pick up a weapon and start fighting himself (quite possibly my imagination).
 
Not defending Hamas, but they are not the only group with rockets:

We hear a lot about how many rockets Hamas fired, but rarely in a proper timeline. Hamas had been strictly observing a cease-fire agreement since it was brokered in 2012, and was even arresting Palestinian militants from rival factions who fired rockets at Israel as recently as last month. Hamas ultimately did resume firing rockets into Israel, but only after the massive crackdown Israel initiated against Hamas in the West Bank (and by some accounts, even after an Israeli airstrike on Gaza).

(rest of the article is good reading: http://www.salon.com/2014/07/28/deb...nts/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=socialflow)
 
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Not to make light of a truly horrendous situation.However over the last few days watching Paul Mason he has the look of a person who has half a mind to pick up a weapon and start fighting himself (quite possibly my imagination).

I think that came across with all three of the Channel 4 reporters who have been there recently (even Jon Snow). I was very, very glad Paul Mason reiterated on air what he said at the end of his blog post - that the only way to avoid killing children is to stop shelling children. It felt quite powerful.

And to give her her due, I thought Emily Maitlis was going to climb through the screen and stab Regev in the fucking face the other night when she was interviewing him. I could feel her absolute, deep, frustrated anger. It was clear to see in her face and manner.
 
"@ALQadiPAL
#Breaking 6 from the Egyptian army in the Borders between gaza and Egypt killed after israel bomb them now."

"@Zee_Gaza
Six Egyptian soldiers killed by Israeli shelling on the border minutes ago. They shelled at us today, I told you.

Egyptian media is yet mute on reporting the death of six Egyptian soldiers on the border?"
 
Right, hey up - "demographic time bomb" - what's that about? Cos I've heard it from a lot of people that part of the reason for the mentality of Jewish Israeli's in regard to any kind of one state solution is that the relative birthrates of Israeli Jews and Palestinians means that they would soon be the minority in any one state formation. Now that to me sounds like a whole load of dodgy racist bollocks and I'm all sold on the neccessity of a two-state solution, at least in terms of rhetoric. Anyone else shed a little light? I've checked out birthrates and it seems like a lot of nonsense to me.
Israeli Jews would already be a minority if there were a one state solution, and a right to return - 9 million to 6 million. Of course not all Palestinians would return (I bet most of the half million in Chile, mostly Christian, would stay there).

The birth rate thng certainly has some truth - Gaza is massivekly young, average age - the average! - is 17. It has one of the highest birth rates in the world (fourth highest or something). No jobs, nowhere to go, what else are you going to do but fuck?
 
ugh someone on facebook is putting up these articles like they're all neutral so definitely the most accurate account of the conflict :rolleyes:

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/post_8056_b_5602701.html

The Sam Harris one is particularly horrible - because it admits that the occupation must be hard, and it's terrible that civilians are being killed, but the majority of Muslims are still Jew-haters with genocidal desires at heard :rolleyes:

edit: ah that Sam Harris one has been posted already! soz!

I'm afraid to say I did just leave a snarky comment in reply to this, as they had a few likes and some 'oh how interesting' comments, and also as I was slightly blinded by rage after watching that vid of Chris Gunness. Just a short comment about dead children :oops: even though I agree with you Vintage Paw about using it as an arguing point. I don't like it really, since it invariably implies that "those poor children, because the adults aren't capable of looking after them", it just conceals a whole host of socio-political problems. I also cringe inside every time "women" is added onto it too.
 
Right, hey up - "demographic time bomb" - what's that about? Cos I've heard it from a lot of people that part of the reason for the mentality of Jewish Israeli's in regard to any kind of one state solution is that the relative birthrates of Israeli Jews and Palestinians means that they would soon be the minority in any one state formation. Now that to me sounds like a whole load of dodgy racist bollocks and I'm all sold on the neccessity of a two-state solution, at least in terms of rhetoric. Anyone else shed a little light? I've checked out birthrates and it seems like a lot of nonsense to me.

Israel, the West Bank and Gaza all have relatively high birth rates compared to Europe or the US, but the birth rates for Palestinians and Israeli Arabs, although falling, remain higher. Also a large portion of the high Israeli birth rates are due to very high birth rates in the Haredi, who won't fight in the IDF and aren't Zionists.

In what way do you think it's bollocks? I can't find anything that says birth rates are the same or lower.
 
I should imagine he's just feeding the debate - I reckon its not his views but will be some of the viewers, so its a pertinent question.
I'll watch it again later but it wasn't a case of Snow saying 'Israel says they're reacting to Hamas attacks, what do you say to that' - he was accusing Hamas of being squarely responsible for provoking Israel. He may be trying to cover his arse against charges of bias but it was essentially a malicious distortion of facts.
 
It has all the same elements but they also commit genocide, without doubt its also an apartheid state.

Its totally relevant, hence why they deny it. Israel even forcibly steralised Ethiopians.


Of course it IS an apartheid state, but its daft to play which was worse.

SA did commit quite a few massacres, albeit not on this scale. But Israel allows a few reamaining Palestinians a vote - so its much better!

Obviously that last sentence isn't true (the better bit at least) but it's why this game isnt worth getting into.
 
Bolivia Declares Israel a Terrorist State

Bolivia on Wednesday renounced a visa exemption agreement with Israel in protest over its offensive in Gaza, and declared it a terrorist state.

President Evo Morales announced the move during a talk with a group of educators in the city of Cochabamba.

It "means, in other words, we are declaring (Israel) a terrorist state," he said.

The treaty has allowed Israelis to travel freely to Bolivia without a visa since 1972.

Morales said the Gaza offensive shows "that Israel is not a guarantor of the principles of respect for life and the elementary precepts of rights that govern the peaceful and harmonious coexistence of our international community."

More than two weeks of fighting in Gaza have left 1,300 dead and 6,000 wounded amid an intense Israeli air and ground campaign in response to missile attacks by the Islamist militant group Hamas.

In the latest development, 16 people were killed after two Israeli shells slammed into a United Nations school, drawing international protests.

Bolivia broke off diplomatic relations with Israel in 2009 over a previous military operation in Gaza.

In mid-July, Morales filed a request with the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights to prosecute Israel for "crimes against humanity."
 
[/QUOTE]
Of course it IS an apartheid state, but its daft to play which was worse.

SA did commit quite a few massacres, albeit not on this scale. But Israel allows a few reamaining Palestinians a vote - so its much better!

Obviously that last sentence isn't true (the better bit at least) but it's why this game isnt worth getting into.


But if its an apatheid state why is it allowed in the world cup, Eurovision, Olympics etc ?

Because the term is not usually applied to it.
 
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This came out a few days ago, so the financial cost and human cost will now be higher, but it is utterly shocking. I'm bolding just to emphasise so it does not get lost in the shuffle:

In 2012 the United Nations had already recommended urgent action to improve basic services for Gaza's mushrooming population or the place would be uninhabitable by 2020.

This month's fighting can only have made that warning more pressing. At least 2,655 homes have been totally or severely damaged, while another 3,175 are damaged but not beyond use, the U.N. said.

Bombs have lashed 116 schools and 18 health centres, stadiums, playgrounds, mosques, roads, phone towers, water lines, sewage treatment plants and police stations.

The cost of rebuilding Gaza homes destroyed so far in Israeli bombing amounts to $800 million - the whole of Gaza's annual budget
- the Palestinian housing minister told Reuters.

http://www.trust.org/item/20140725115628-l2vhy/?source=shtw
 
I was very, very glad Paul Mason reiterated on air what he said at the end of his blog post - that the only way to avoid killing children is to stop shelling children. It felt quite powerful.
Tbh, I'm not interested in Mason's opinion on what should be done. He's not the story (unless he gets blown up, which I hope doesn't happen)
 
The SP & AWL both still support a two state solution, I would be intrigued to know how they think that could possibly come about now. Last time I recall reading their stuff, it was all based around hopes of the Israeli Labour Party (who make ours look positively anarcho-communist)

There probably was some daft shite about the Israeli Labour Party in the Militant days but we have some feet on the ground now. The "official" line is that we support two Socialist states as part of a democratic socialist Middle East. The AWL have a mediated two-state solution. The unofficial line from those regarded experts on Israel/Palestine is that frankly nothing good is going to happen without a socialist revolution somewhere in the Middle East, or at the very least somebody seriously smashing up the Israeli state, whether it be the jewish israeli's or the palestinian israeli's or the Gazan's or all of them really. This may or may not be delivered with a "so if you want to help the Palestinians, get stuck in and build the CWI and world socialism".
 
It has all the same elements but they also commit genocide, without doubt its also an apartheid state.

Its totally relevant, hence why they deny it. Israel even forcibly steralised Ethiopians.



Actually, for the sake of detail, its not genocide. There are nearly 2 million people in Gaza; this is even now not death on a scale that could be interpreted as a realistic attempt at genocide. It is of no relevance to the issue which was "worse" but it is mad to attempt to make the case that this is "worse".
 
There probably was some daft shite about the Israeli Labour Party in the Militant days but we have some feet on the ground now. The "official" line is that we support two Socialist states as part of a democratic socialist Middle East. The AWL have a mediated two-state solution. The unofficial line from those regarded experts on Israel/Palestine is that frankly nothing good is going to happen without a socialist revolution somewhere in the Middle East, or at the very least somebody seriously smashing up the Israeli state, whether it be the jewish israeli's or the palestinian israeli's or the Gazan's or all of them really. This may or may not be delivered with a "so if you want to help the Palestinians, get stuck in and build the CWI and world socialism".
cheers, the basic position of most of the left then is, no answer except socialism. Bugger.

And, of course, your reply begs the question of why the hell anyone would want two socialist states, divided on ethno-religious lines, rather than one multicultural socialist state.
 
From Guardian, 2004. The nature of the IDF.

An Israeli army officer who repeatedly shot a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in Gaza dismissed a warning from another soldier that she was a child by saying he would have killed her even if she was three years old.
The officer, identified by the army only as Captain R, was charged this week with illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and other relatively minor infractions after emptying all 10 bullets from his gun's magazine into Iman al-Hams when she walked into a "security area" on the edge of Rafah refugee camp last month.

A tape recording of radio exchanges between soldiers involved in the incident, played on Israeli television, contradicts the army's account of the events and appears to show that the captain shot the girl in cold blood.

The official account claimed that Iman was shot as she walked towards an army post with her schoolbag because soldiers feared she was carrying a bomb.

But the tape recording of the radio conversation between soldiers at the scene reveals that, from the beginning, she was identified as a child and at no point was a bomb spoken about nor was she described as a threat. Iman was also at least 100 yards from any soldier.

Instead, the tape shows that the soldiers swiftly identified her as a "girl of about 10" who was "scared to death".

The tape also reveals that the soldiers said Iman was headed eastwards, away from the army post and back into the refugee camp, when she was shot.

At that point, Captain R took the unusual decision to leave the post in pursuit of the girl. He shot her dead and then "confirmed the kill" by emptying his magazine into her body.
 
Tbh, I'm not interested in Mason's opinion on what should be done. He's not the story (unless he gets blown up, which I hope doesn't happen)

That's not the point. The point is, how often do we hear this message on tv? This isn't about a cult of Paul Mason. This is about demanding more of these views to be aired on prime time telly, by people who other people look to for their news. We hear nothing but "Hamas should stop firing rockets" and "Israel is defending itself" and "Hamas hides behind children" on mainstream news at tea time, so damn right I'm going to cheer hearing someone say "if you really don't want to kill children, stop killing children."
 
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