belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
aah yes, and that too
Gaza under attack yet again.
- Thread starter Mr.Bishie
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bmd
Island in the stream.
You're not looking at the big picture are you. War is hell I'm afraid. Israel has saved all it's citizens because it has made shelters. Hamas, with its mountains of material wealth has built swimming pools and jacuzzis instead. Oh and tunnels. You need a lot of air to make a tunnel. They could have used that to make shelters with. See?
Plumdaff
joy in people
What happened to the "ceasefire". Stream is of bombings and emergency sirens.
On what to do. It seems that at the very least the blockade should be lifted. No-one should have to negotiate from a prison camp. But as others have said nothing will happen without the US pulling, or threaterning to pull the financial plug which allows Israel to do this from a position of such superiority and security, But how to achieve that? How do you influence US policy?
On what to do. It seems that at the very least the blockade should be lifted. No-one should have to negotiate from a prison camp. But as others have said nothing will happen without the US pulling, or threaterning to pull the financial plug which allows Israel to do this from a position of such superiority and security, But how to achieve that? How do you influence US policy?
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
you don't. 'they strangled their own democratic processes at birth too, so the people who live and vote there don't get to change it either.
Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
I'm afraid I know little about the discussion around possible 'solutions', could anyone give me the low-down or some links on debates around the merits of a two state solution versus a one state solution please?
Is a two state solution even remotely possible? It seems to be the only thing ever on the table, the only thing people ever talk about. Does anyone ever talk about a one state solution where the lands are shared and everyone is an equal citizen of the same country? A solution like South Africa (okay, 'equal citizen' isn't exactly accurate considering the economic and racial issue still at play there, but you get my meaning).
Is a two state solution even remotely possible? It seems to be the only thing ever on the table, the only thing people ever talk about. Does anyone ever talk about a one state solution where the lands are shared and everyone is an equal citizen of the same country? A solution like South Africa (okay, 'equal citizen' isn't exactly accurate considering the economic and racial issue still at play there, but you get my meaning).
Plumdaff
joy in people
Fucking miserable isn't it. Mind you our government support Israel, we sell them arms, and most of us think this is odious too.
eta. To my mind a one state solution is the only possible answer for all the people. Even if a two state solution were ever viable, Israel has made it impossible over the years with encroaching settlements etc. One state is the only way everybody gets to stay and Palestinians get to return, no? Be happy to here what people who know more think.
bmd
Island in the stream.
Vintage Paw, have you read the Christian Aid link on the previous page? That briefly discusses the two state solution.
eta Link
eta Link
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
I was reading up on the biafran war and was appaled to find that while the british as citizens were giving many millions in aid, our government was selling weapons to the agressor. Like I said to frog yesterday, the world is run by cunts
Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Fatah agreed to start negotiating a 2 state solution 25 years ago, at which point they immediately started losing support. Israel were unlikely ever to go along with it. It was always a poor solution - the Palestinian majority would be forced onto smaller, poorer, land than the jewish minority. Now, the jewish settlers have spread over such a wide area, there is no meaningful land that could be given to Palestine without kicking the settlers off. And Israel will never kick those settlers off.
They also cant support a single, secular, state, with full right of return for all 9 million Palestinians, because then they'd be a minority in 'their own' land
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
From what I've read, niether side will be happy with a two-state solution. Documents aside, thats the de facto situation anyway. And we know that between equal rights force decides, hence the erosion of palistinian land, illegal settlements etc.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
The SP & AWL both still support a two state solution, I would be intrigued to know how they think that could possibly come about now. Last time I recall reading their stuff, it was all based around hopes of the Israeli Labour Party (who make ours look positively anarcho-communist)
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Fatah agreed, Hamas gave a nod and a wink (whatever it might say in their charter). '67 borders (inc East Jerusalem) could probably be sold to the people. But Israel has expanded far too much now for that to be possible.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
It is worth pointing out perhaps that "they" in that context are just a small minority, albeit they are the ones currently in charge over there.
Most of the rational people who actually keep that state going are very unlikely to go on or support some biblically-inspired war of conquest - witness for instance how often the heads or former heads of the IDF, Shin Bet and Mossad have publically fallen out with Bibi, Lieberman and the rest over the direction they are taking the country in now, never mind trying to recreate something that existed during the Bronze Age.
Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
Ok, I read it, thanks.
So, unless I read it wrong (which is entirely possible) it's not really calling explicitly for a two state or one state solution, and I almost see the implication in their focus on the language of equality is that a one state solution is the way forward.
Surely the presence of a border of any kind - regardless the boundary - will always lead to tension, will always be contested. One state, where everyone has the same right to live in any area, and everyone has the same legal protections, seems like a no brainer. Then you 'only' have to deal with the slow and painful move past internal racism and discrimination - which is something that should be legislated and educated against within the state.
I make it sound so easy. I know it's not.
SovietArmy
Well-Known Member
Eh politics is hurting people, no love provided for Palestinian people and most important for children,trouble with all of us we do watch news upsetting debating online freely after we forget Palestinian peoples' pain and again we will carry on bombing Gaza. Any solutions to stop slaughtering humans would be wonderful idea.
Hmm... What that would mean really is that Israel would get out of Gaza, which would be a good idea but they would never persuade the settlers to go with them especially after investing so much in adding to the settlements. "Take a bit to the north" is not on of course, it would mean swapping Hamas for Hezbollah I guess.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Most of the worlds' governments officially support two states, have for nigh on 70 years. Including Britain and the USA. But they do absolutely nothing to actually attempt to gt Israel to implement it.
Yup, spot on.
Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
Okay, that makes sense. Thanks. Sorry for being a bit muddle headed about it all.
It seems clear to my idealist self that the single secular state is the 'right' thing to do. It's the most equitable, the most legally, morally and ethically defensible. But as you say, right to return would mean Israelis become a minority, making it a no go.
So the only solution - should any ever be found - will have to ensure that Israel retain their status as the more powerful, the one with more inherent right to the land, than the Palestinians, and the Palestinians will always, forever more, be the 'guest' in their own land.
bmd
Island in the stream.
I'm no expert at all Vintage Paw. belboid looks like s/he has more of clue 
Mr.Bishie
pickled egg
"@AymanM: Eyewitness say several shells landed at Shejaiya market, among those killed were a child, paramedics, men"
"@thompwalker: #Shajaiya market crowded when shell hit, killing 16, wounding 130. Many thought partial #IDF ceasefire would keep them safe."
"@Belalmd12: I don't know what just happened, but at Shifa we received +100 injuries within minutes. it's a massacre."
"@WhateverInGaza they declared a 'humanitarian' ceasefire and when Gazans went to get food they bombed a market"
"@thompwalker: #Shajaiya market crowded when shell hit, killing 16, wounding 130. Many thought partial #IDF ceasefire would keep them safe."
"@Belalmd12: I don't know what just happened, but at Shifa we received +100 injuries within minutes. it's a massacre."
"@WhateverInGaza they declared a 'humanitarian' ceasefire and when Gazans went to get food they bombed a market"
Patteran
A nowadays excuse
Apologies if this is old news, but there's a terrific piece from Edward Said on the One State Solution - written for the New York Times in 1999, but hopefully still pertinent, if only as background.
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/01/10/magazine/the-one-state-solution.html?src=pm&pagewanted=1
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/01/10/magazine/the-one-state-solution.html?src=pm&pagewanted=1
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
A market? Lerner will probably be on television shortly making the claim that they were entirely justified in striking a Hamas stall selling rocket lettuce.
Vintage Paw
dead stare and computer glare
The children were probably holding bananas like guns.
How do we let them talk their way out of such atrocities? Why do we turn away and accept what they say?
I don't really want that answering, I know why, I suppose. But I can't help but ask it every time more people are killed.
Also, I don't know that it's even worth talking about, if it's distracting, or something, but while I understand that killing children is seen as more diabolical because they are innocents, because they can't be willing agents of the conflict whether they want to be or not, and while I understand that it's an important rallying point to garner more sympathy for Palestinians, I can't help but think that if the people dying were overwhelmingly grown Palestinian men we wouldn't be seeing the outpouring of outrage and grief around the world that we are doing. And that's absolutely, flat out wrong and vile. Every life they take is a crime. Every life they take is worth getting outraged about and worth mourning. But would we care if they weren't children?
How do we let them talk their way out of such atrocities? Why do we turn away and accept what they say?
I don't really want that answering, I know why, I suppose. But I can't help but ask it every time more people are killed.
Also, I don't know that it's even worth talking about, if it's distracting, or something, but while I understand that killing children is seen as more diabolical because they are innocents, because they can't be willing agents of the conflict whether they want to be or not, and while I understand that it's an important rallying point to garner more sympathy for Palestinians, I can't help but think that if the people dying were overwhelmingly grown Palestinian men we wouldn't be seeing the outpouring of outrage and grief around the world that we are doing. And that's absolutely, flat out wrong and vile. Every life they take is a crime. Every life they take is worth getting outraged about and worth mourning. But would we care if they weren't children?
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
The truce didnt apply to anywhere that the IDF was operating, apparently. So its the fault of the Gaza civilians for not having an accurate knowledge of what one of the world's most powerful militaries was up to!
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