Gaza under attack yet again.

[ViolentPanda]

Yet if Muslims say the Twin Towers, the world centre of capitalism, was a legitimate target they end up in Guantanamo bay or doing life in a US prison.

Superpower justice. If you're small and/or weak, they get to define the terms.

 

[D'wards]

So whats the workable solution? Was discussing this with a colleague who also happens to be an Imam, and we reasoned the only way is to go to the 1947 map with assurances from Israel and the Arab states that no attacks or incursions will occur ever again (if thats possible)

I just don't see the arab states attacking again, like previous incidents, though. For one thing Egypt and Syria have their own internal struggles anyway.

 

[ViolentPanda]

To be fair they do have a lot of work to do keeping up the belief that Israel is America's strongest ally, despite all the spying, the vast sums of money sent the way of Israel*, the utter lack of any real assistance in any war that the US has been involved in, the abuse when the Israeli government doesnt get its way (ie Kerry's treatment lately, Obama's treatment generally), the vast lobbying on the Capitol in favour of a foriegn power, the inevitable transfer of technology to third states (whether deliberately or accidentally) and the massive diplomatic complications that come from giving the Israelis a blank cheque to do whatever they want, to whomever they want.

* admittedly much of it is spent buying US military goods, but its still taxpayers / borrowed money in the first place

Plus, of course the hundreds of millions of dollars (sometimes shading into billions) of private donations from US Jews and Christian Zionists to Zionist charities in the state of Israel.

 

[SpackleFrog]

This popped up on Facebook. Not sure how to feel about it.

http://www.globetoday.com/one-of-the-most-beautiful-accurate-and-true-cartoons-ever-a-masterpiece/#

 

[ViolentPanda]

So whats the workable solution? Was discussing this with a colleague who also happens to be an Imam, and we reasoned the only way is to go to the 1947 map with assurances from Israel and the Arab states that no attacks or incursions will occur ever again (if thats possible)

I just don't see the arab states attacking again, like previous incidents, though. For one thing Egypt and Syria have their own internal struggles anyway.

Egypt is also pretty much in the pockets of the state of Israel and the US economically. A significant minority of all Egypts perishable foodstuffs are grown in Israel, and Egypt also receives almost as much US aid as the state of Israel does. Jordan is never going to be a problem, Syria will probably only return to a semblance of cohesion after decades (so no assurances there), and Lebanon is only interested in retaining its' own borders.
The problem, as it always has been, lies with the nationalist Zionist/revisionist Zionist claim that the state of Israel's territories must include the entirety of the old kingdoms of Judaea and Samaria - in other words, an Israel which includes parts of Egypt, Iraq and Saudi Arabia, and most of Syria, Jordan and Lebanon. While the Palestinians and the Arab nations might favour a return to the '47 or even the '67 borders, the state of Israel will never favour such a thing. They want it all, and this is evident from the constant expansion of settlements in the West Bank, and the ever-increasing encroachment into Gaza. All these peace talks; all they do is buy the state of Israel more time to build "facts on the ground".

 

[agricola]

So whats the workable solution? Was discussing this with a colleague who also happens to be an Imam, and we reasoned the only way is to go to the 1947 map with assurances from Israel and the Arab states that no attacks or incursions will occur ever again (if thats possible)

I just don't see the arab states attacking again, like previous incidents, though. For one thing Egypt and Syria have their own internal struggles anyway.

There probably isnt a workable solution that solves the entire crisis (or at least anytime soon), but a first step in resolving this crisis might be Gaza going independent, still cut off from Israel (and probably Egypt as well) but trading with everyone else by sea and air.

The current Israeli regime would probably reject that immediately of course, but given that there are two UN resolutions opposing the occupation, as well as facts on the ground of a big fence, considerable armed forces even in peacetime and surface to air missile sites ringing the area I find it hard to believe they would ever be able to make any kind of legitimate claim to it being theirs.

 

[Crispy]

This popped up on Facebook. Not sure how to feel about it.

http://www.globetoday.com/one-of-the-most-beautiful-accurate-and-true-cartoons-ever-a-masterpiece/#

A couple of years old now, that. A nice little film, but doesn't really say much.

 

[laptop]

The problem, as it always has been, lies with the nationalist Zionist/revisionist Zionist claim that the state of Israel's territories must include the entirety of the old kingdoms of Judaea and Samaria...

Samaria for the Samaritans!



(That's almost all their menfolk.)

 

[Theisticle]

Everyone needs to read this from Christian Aid:

http://www.christianaid.org.uk/pres...a-impunity-must-end.aspx#.U9jelDmqZF0.twitter

 

[smmudge]

ugh someone on facebook is putting up these articles like they're all neutral so definitely the most accurate account of the conflict

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/post_8056_b_5602701.html

The Sam Harris one is particularly horrible - because it admits that the occupation must be hard, and it's terrible that civilians are being killed, but the majority of Muslims are still Jew-haters with genocidal desires at heard

edit: ah that Sam Harris one has been posted already! soz!

 

[frogwoman]

ugh someone on facebook is putting up these articles like they're all neutral so definitely the most accurate account of the conflict

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/post_8056_b_5602701.html

The Sam Harris one is particularly horrible - because it admits that the occupation must be hard, and it's terrible that civilians are being killed, but the majority of Muslims are still Jew-haters with genocidal desires at heard

My cousin asked me to look at those

 

[frogwoman]

Its just heartbreaking, in a few years people will be asking why we didn't do anything

 

[Theisticle]

People like Dawkins and Harris love Ali A Rizvi - calls himself a Muslim atheist (not cultural Muslim) to attack the religion. Using the same arguments as many on the right. But he acts as the perfect cultural informer for bigots because he was brought up a Muslim. Despite him having no detailed knowledge of Islam outside of his own cultural experience.

His article is a crock of shit too.

 

[smmudge]

My cousin asked me to look at those

The worst thing is they come across as "we're looking at this from both sides of the story", except it doesn't AT ALL, but then if you go in there criticising it looks like you're being too biased or whatever. So what can you say?

 

[Theisticle]

Example:

"Amazingly, many of the graphic images of dead children attributed to Israeli bombardment that are circulating online are from Syria, based on a BBC report."

You can't use one example and claim a pattern. Disingenuous and a lack of empathy for the disproportionate amount of children killed. What a total bastard.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Can someone confirm - is this map broadly accurate? Isee it used a lot but have also seen people say it's incorrect.

 

[weltweit]

Its just heartbreaking, in a few years people will be asking why we didn't do anything

The key question, is what should we do? what should our representatives do?

 

[weltweit]

Can someone confirm - is this map broadly accurate? Isee it used a lot but have also seen people say it's incorrect.

As far as I am aware it is broadly accurate..
There are other maps, for example showing Israel against all the arab countries in the region.

 

[Theisticle]

In response to another UN school being bombed:

 

[quiquaquo]

Egypt is also pretty much in the pockets of the state of Israel and the US economically. A significant minority of all Egypts perishable foodstuffs are grown in Israel, and Egypt also receives almost as much US aid as the state of Israel does. Jordan is never going to be a problem, Syria will probably only return to a semblance of cohesion after decades (so no assurances there), and Lebanon is only interested in retaining its' own borders.
The problem, as it always has been, lies with the nationalist Zionist/revisionist Zionist claim that the state of Israel's territories must include the entirety of the old kingdoms of Judaea and Samaria - in other words, an Israel which includes parts of Egypt, Iraq and Saudi Arabia, and most of Syria, Jordan and Lebanon. While the Palestinians and the Arab nations might favour a return to the '47 or even the '67 borders, the state of Israel will never favour such a thing. They want it all, and this is evident from the constant expansion of settlements in the West Bank, and the ever-increasing encroachment into Gaza. All these peace talks; all they do is buy the state of Israel more time to build "facts on the ground".

Indeed, they will not stop, they will ethnically cleanse Gaza and the West bank and then move on to Lebanon and parts of Sinai and northern KSA.

I have no idea how to stop them any more, probably it will take decades if not centuries before this monstrous state collapses on itself or destroyed by its actions. Fascism is on the rise and this what it must have felt like in the 1930's to those looking in from the outside on the building disastrous consequences.

 

[laptop]

Can someone confirm - is this map broadly accurate? Isee it used a lot but have also seen people say it's incorrect.

It fits with my knowledge.

Not sure what the original source is, but you can buy postcards (in $) at http://www.fosna.org/content/mapcards

Juan Cole discusses it at http://www.juancole.com/2014/07/palestinian-thwarted-speaking.html

Its detractors are reduced to the "there never was an Arab state called 'Palestine'" trope.

 

[quiquaquo]

The key question, is what should we do? what should our representatives do?

It's probably best I don't write what I think should be the way forward.

 

[weltweit]

It's probably best I don't write what I think should be the way forward.

Why not?
If your way is equally unacceptable then yes, perhaps it is best you don't!

 

[quiquaquo]

Why not?
If your way is equally unacceptable then yes, perhaps it is best you don't!

The fact you make such an assumption says more about you than me.

 

[weltweit]

The fact you make such an assumption says more about you than me.

Well I don't understand why you wouldn't suggest a way forward then.

I think, there should be an extended humanitarian cease fire.
A peace process including Israel, Fatah and Hamas should be started.
The aim should be progress towards a two state solution.
Israeli settlements in the West Bank will have to be reversed.
Hamas may have to renounce violence to lift the blockade of Gaza.

Just some ideas.

eta: and that is not to mention the right of return, intentionally.

 

[uk benzo]

Indeed, they will not stop, they will ethnically cleanse Gaza and the West bank and then move on to Lebanon and parts of Sinai and northern KSA.

I have no idea how to stop them any more, probably it will take decades if not centuries before this monstrous state collapses on itself or destroyed by its actions. Fascism is on the rise and this what it must have felt like in the 1930's to those looking in from the outside on the building disastrous consequences.

Something will happen in the next 15 years. The demographic timebomb that the zionists fear will explode soon. It will be a minority brutally repressing a majority. Such situations have always ended in mass bloodshed.

 

[weltweit]

UN 'warned Israel 17 times' about location of School
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28559537

 

[TopCat]

The Israeli's will only stop if the US threaten to stop their loan guarantees as George Bush senior did all those years ago (what provoked him to do this BTW?)

 

[uk benzo]

The Israeli's will only stop if the US threaten to stop their loan guarantees as George Bush senior did all those years ago (what provoked him to do this BTW?)

If I'm not mistaken, this was to appease the Arab people in the Middle East just before Gulf war I- which was the first time the US had planned such a large military/naval presence in the region.

 

[belboid]

The Israeli's will only stop if the US threaten to stop their loan guarantees as George Bush senior did all those years ago (what provoked him to do this BTW?)

a massive new settlements policy by Israel. Forced them to the Madrid peace conference, which...went nowhere iirr