Gaza under attack yet again.

[SpookyFrank]

The news reports I've been reading suggest hamas fired rockets first. This is what I don't get. Militarily they have nothing to achieve by doing this. They cannot beat Israel into submission. As long as they keep firing they are handing an excuse to a far bigger and we'll armed state. So there has to be a political reason behind this? A calculated reason? Whatever the reason is in all of this innocent people are dying and for this reason I think the actions of Hamas and Israel make them massive cunts.

Maybe they're just really annoyed? I would be if I'd spent my life in a vast prison despite committing no crime.

 

[iROBOT]

It's possible the vast difference in resources and international support between the two sides has a bearing on how well they're able to 'defend their people'.

A valid point and one I don’t disagree, as I said Israel doesn’t need to go in this hard as Israeli civilian losses are 0% as they are being effectively protected.

 

[uk benzo]

They're both cunts, equally, but one protects it;s people better than the other. This was my point.

No, one is better at establishing an apartheid state on the back of physically displacing an indigenous population 60 years ago, that to this day terrorises, murders and applies racist social policies to maintain the status quo. Welcome to the zionist entity.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Well Butcher's brought up Hamas winning elections and popular support. There are folk there opposed to Al-Quassam who voted for hamas in 06 but not the overtly militant aspects. You said that Israel would do whatever they want regardless, so I contend that the people of Gaza would be better served (certainly in the short term) if hamas fucked off and other solutions were attempted to end the blockades. And no, I don't know what they are but I'm pretty sure that whilst attacks are launched from Gaza the blockades will remain and the shelling will continue.

They've already tried other solutions. They've agreed to two ceasefires and stuck to them both because Israel says they'll talk about lifting the blockade once the fireworks stopped (I refuse to call them rockets now because they're not). The fireworks stopped for 19 months, nothing was done about the blockade, Hamas still didn't launch their fireworks. The fireworks began again in response to Israeli airstrikes, Israeli officials admitted this.

So Hamas agree to a ceasefire in 2012, they live up to their side of the agreement by not firing fireworks, Israel fails to live up to theirs by even refusing to discuss lifting of the blockade, let alone doing it, they then break the ceasefire by bombing Gaza at the start of July, Hamas retaliates with their, as one poster amusingly and accurately put it earlier in the thread, 'farting over the wall' and suddenly it's 'oh Hamas, what a bunch of terrorists we can't negotiate with them' and yada yada.

 

[Spymaster]

Of course it counts

Aye, that was a fair bust as it happens.

 

[Spymaster]

So Hamas agree to a ceasefire in 2012, they live up to their side of the agreement by not firing fireworks, Israel fails to live up to theirs by even refusing to discuss lifting of the blockade, let alone doing it, they then break the ceasefire by bombing Gaza at the start of July, Hamas retaliates with their, as one poster amusingly and accurately put it earlier in the thread, 'farting over the wall' and suddenly it's 'oh Hamas, what a bunch of terrorists we can't negotiate with them' and yada yada.

So the solution is to keep shooting the fireworks?

Surely that's the worst solution if doing it gets 2000 of your people killed and the status quo regarding the blockades is maintained.

 

[iROBOT]

No, one is better at establishing an apartheid state on the back of physically displacing an indigenous population 60 years ago, that to this day terrorises, murders and applies racist social policies to maintain the status quo. Welcome to the zionist entity.

Of course I have deep reservations about Europeans yet again stealing the land of others and as a "Hindu Nationalist" borderline "Hindu chauvinist" (lol) I have experience of both the Muslim and European/Christian attitude to people of other faiths (or none)
Like I said they are both cunts, longitudinally speaking.

 

[Pickman's model]

Of course I have deep reservations about Europeans yet again stealing the land of others and as a "Hindu Nationalist" borderline "Hindu chauvinist" (lol) I have experience of both the Muslim and European/Christian attitude to people of other faiths.
Like I said they are both cunts, longitudinally speaking.

all zionists are europeans? where's that from then?

i see you subscribe to the auld naval adage of 'tell me what longitude you're from and i'll know what latitude to allow you'.

 

[iROBOT]

all zionists are europeans? where's that from then?

i see you subscribe to the auld naval adage of 'tell me what longitude you're from and i'll know what latitude to allow you'.

Of European decent, the convert Jews of Russia, will have to look it up.

The majority of Jews from Europe (later immigrants to Israel psot 1948) were not Semites but converts from about 400ad...(Like I said will have to look it up as I could have some facts wrong) but my genral trust is correct I belive.

 

[Pickman's model]

my genral trust is correct I belive.

this is devoid of meaning

 

[iROBOT]

Ok, "the genral thrust of my post"

Better?

(sorry typing too quickly)

Enjoyed the navel reference, v.funny....

 

[Doctor Carrot]

So the solution is to keep shooting the fireworks?

Surely that's the worst solution if doing it gets 2000 of your people killed and the status quo regarding the blockades is maintained.

They don't shoot the fireworks. They get a slow death, all of the Palestinians and not just Hamas. 95% of Gaza's water is unfit for human consumption, that's only one aspect that constitutes a slow death for them.

They shoot the fireworks. In response some get a quick death. I've heard Palestinians say 'we'd rather a quick death than the slow one offered by the zionists.' But it also causes the army to come in, which causes some army deaths, higher than usual and higher than the public will tolerate so it puts pressure on Nethanyahu. The destruction also puts some international pressure on Nethanyahu not much but some. It costs Israel more support internationally and so on.

So option 1: Do nothing, live in misery, receive a slow death of your people, culture, dignity and so on.

Option 2: Chuck fireworks. Receive a quick death for some of your people but put pressure on the people occupying you, both internally and externally, resist in whatever way possible and don't die slowly on your knees, resist in this manner and actually have international law on your side as it's legal for an occupied people to resist with arms, bolster support for your organisation both internally and externally and give yourself more of a say at negotiations.

Those are the two options Hamas has. I know which one I'd take.

 

[savoloysam]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-28686516

The BBC, along with other UK public service broadcasters, has agreed to air an emergency appeal for people affected by the conflict in Gaza.


It is expected the first Disasters Emergency Committee (DEC) appeal will be broadcast after BBC Radio Four's Today programme on Friday morning.


It is understood the appeal will then be shown after the 18:00 BST and 22:00 BST news bulletins on BBC One.


The DEC appeal will also be shown on ITV, Channel 4, Channel Five and Sky.

 

[weltweit]

The news reports I've been reading suggest hamas fired rockets first. This is what I don't get. Militarily they have nothing to achieve by doing this. They cannot beat Israel into submission. As long as they keep firing they are handing an excuse to a far bigger and well armed state to fire back. So there has to be a political reason behind this? A calculated reason? Whatever the reason is in all of this innocent people are dying and for this reason I think the actions of Hamas and Israel make them massive cunts.

When Hamas rockets fly into Israel, air raid warnings sound and civilians have to run to bomb shelters. If the rocket is headed for a populated area Iron Dome deals with it but nevertheless, the lives of the population are disrupted, they don't like it and they put pressure on the regime.

 

[weltweit]

I am unsure the issues can be resolved. I don't see Israel permitting the blockade to be lifted because firstly they fear the re-arming of Hamas, and secondly they want to maintain the miserable state in Gaza in order to persuade as many of the population to leave (if or when they can), yet the lifting of the blockade is what Hamas really need.

 

[coley]

Well Butcher's brought up Hamas winning elections and popular support. There are folk there opposed to Al-Quassam who voted for hamas in 06 but not the overtly militant aspects. You said that Israel would do whatever they want regardless, so I contend that the people of Gaza would be better served (certainly in the short term) if hamas fucked off and other solutions were attempted to end the blockades. And no, I don't know what they are but I'm pretty sure that whilst attacks are launched from Gaza the blockades will remain and the shelling will continue.

If Hamas " fucked off" and the region became less of a focus for worldwide attention, then the Israelis could carry on making the Gazans life utterly unbearable until they eventually force them to move elsewhere, this seems clearly the medium/long term aim of the Israeli state.

 

[Fuchs66]

When Hamas rockets fly into Israel, air raid warnings sound and civilians have to run to bomb shelters. If the rocket is headed for a populated area Iron Dome deals with it but nevertheless, the lives of the population are disrupted, they don't like it and they put pressure on the regime.

But the pressure they put on the regime, seems to be for the regime to go in hard militarily.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-28686516

The BBC, along with other UK public service broadcasters, has agreed to air an emergency appeal for people affected by the conflict in Gaza.


It is expected the first Disasters Emergency Committee (DEC) appeal will be broadcast after BBC Radio Four's Today programme on Friday morning.


It is understood the appeal will then be shown after the 18:00 BST and 22:00 BST news bulletins on BBC One.


The DEC appeal will also be shown on ITV, Channel 4, Channel Five and Sky.

Somewhere an Israeli lobbyist has just spat his coffee onto a monitor screen.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

When Hamas rockets fly into Israel, air raid warnings sound and civilians have to run to bomb shelters. If the rocket is headed for a populated area Iron Dome deals with it but nevertheless, the lives of the population are disrupted, they don't like it and they put pressure on the regime.

Iron dome is a load of shit too. Watch the Finkelstein interview. Three Israeli civilian deaths before Iron Dome and when Hamas did have a few actual rockets. Three Israeli civilian deaths with Iron Dome when Hamas only have fireworks. The patriot missile was shown to be a load of bollocks and this system is too.

 

[Spymaster]

So option 1: Do nothing, live in misery, receive a slow death of your people, culture, dignity and so on.

Option 2: Chuck fireworks. Receive a quick death for some of your people but put pressure on the people occupying you, both internally and externally, resist in whatever way possible and don't die slowly on your knees, resist in this manner and actually have international law on your side as it's legal for an occupied people to resist with arms, bolster support for your organisation both internally and externally and give yourself more of a say at negotiations.

Option 3: Stop chucking fireworks, get Fatah properly involved in Gaza and start talking again.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Option 3: Stop chucking fireworks, get Fatah properly involved in Gaza and start talking again.

They already did! They formed a unity government with Fatah! Nethanyahu didn't like that hence why they've 'mowed the lawn.'

 

[agricola]

Option 3: Stop chucking fireworks, get Fatah properly involved in Gaza and start talking again.

er - the agreement between Hamas and Fatah is one of the main reasons why Bibi started bombing them in the first place.

As for negotiations, they would be the ideal situation but given that the Israelis arent going to allow them to import all the materials required to repair the damage that the IDF has just caused, to say nothing of allowing some kind of economic normality to be brought about by lifting the blockade, one wonders what the point of sitting down and talking would be.

 

[Spymaster]

They already did! They formed a unity government with Fatah! Nethanyahu didn't like that hence why they've 'mowed the lawn.'

The unity government isn't working because it's that, hamas need to go away!

 

[agricola]

The unity government isn't working because it's that, hamas need to go away!

Its too unified!

 

[Spymaster]

Its too unified!

Don't be a tit. I'm suggesting fucking off hamas completely and replacing them with Fatah. Have another vote. See how they get on now.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

The unity government isn't working because it's that, hamas need to go away!

No no no, read the context of this. Hamas and Fatah formed a unity government. Nethanyahu didn't like it because it undermines his argument that Israel has no negotiation partner because Fatah only spoke for half of Palestinians. The unity government means it speaks for all of them. Nethanyahu asked the US and the EU not to recognise the unity government but they refused and said lets wait and see. This pissed Nethanyahu off but then suddenly he gets a political opportunity by shamelessly exploiting the deaths of those three kids, which Hamas were not responsible for by the way. Under that pretext Israel ransacked the west bank, rearrested people they released under the gilad shalit prisoner exchange deal, so that's another deal broken by Israel, they shot nine civilians dead and then bombed Gaza. Hamas then retaliates and here we are today.

 

[agricola]

Don't be a tit. I'm suggesting fucking off hamas completely and replacing them with Fatah. Have another vote. See how they get on now.

They are (or were) going to have an election around October-time as the result of the agreement, and one would imagine that Hamas is likely to win even bigger than they did in 2006. Is it any wonder that they will, given that the choice is being bombed (Hamas) or being ignored and seeing the settlements expand even more (Fatah)?

 

[Spymaster]

The unity government means it speaks for all of them.

But that's part of the problem isn't it? Whilst people who want to shoot fireworks are being represented, Israel can legitimise not talking, and bombing.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

But that's part of the problem isn't it? Whilst people who want to shoot fireworks are being represented, Israel can legitimise not talking, and bombing.

I don't know why you're failing to grasp the fact that Hamas agreed to the ceasefire and didn't shoot fireworks for 19 months. Furthermore, they effectively policed other factions in Gaza and prevented them from firing fireworks, actions praised by Israel. Palestinians in Gaza voted for Hamas in a free and fair election. Hamas have demonstrated they want peace and stuck to ceasefires. Where's Israel's demonstration they want peace?

 

[RhymnRzn]

Israeli disengagement from Gaza (highlighted from wikipedia)

Many on both sides remained skeptical of his will to carry out a withdrawal beyond Gaza and the northern West Bank. Sharon had a majority for the plan in the government but not within his own party. This forced him to seek a National Unity government, which was established in January 2005. Opponents of the plan, and some ministers, such as Benjamin Netanyahu and former minister Natan Sharansky, called on Sharon to hold a national referendum to prove that he had a mandate, which he refused to do.

On November 9, Netanyahu withdrew his resignation threat, saying "In this new situation [the death of Yasser Arafat], I decided to stay in the government".

On August 10, in his first speech before the Knesset following his resignation, Netanyahu spoke of the necessity for Knesset members to oppose the proposed disengagement.

"Only we in the Knesset are able to stop this evil. Everything that the Knesset has decided, it is also capable of changing. I am calling on all those who grasp the danger: Gather strength and do the right thing. I don't know if the entire move can be stopped, but it still might be stopped in its initial stages. [Don't] give [the Palestinians] guns, don't give them rockets, don't give them a sea port, and don't give them a huge base for terror."[citation needed]

On August 15, Sharon said that, while he had hoped Israel could keep the Gaza settlements forever, reality simply intervened. "It is out of strength and not weakness that we are taking this step", repeating his argument that the disengagement plan has given Israel the diplomatic initiative.

Aftermath

After Israel's withdrawal, the Palestinians were given control over the Gaza Strip, except for the borders, the airspace and the territorial waters. The area of the dismantled West Bank settlements remained part of Area C, that is area under full Israeli civil and military control.

Criticisms and opinions

The unilateral disengagement plan has been criticized from various viewpoints. In Israel, it has been criticized by the settlers themselves, supported by the Israeli right, who saw Ariel Sharon's action as a betrayal of his previous policies of support of settlement. Conversely, the disengagement has been criticized by parts of the Israeli left, who viewed it as nothing more than a mode of stalling negotiations and increasing Israeli presence in the West Bank.[citation needed] The disengagement also did not address wider issues of occupation. Israel retained control over Gaza’s borders, airspace, coastline, infrastructure, power, import-exports, etc.

interesting to see Ben Nyet's doctrine from that time to now. I wonder if he had plans to create an amusement park or something on the rubble of Gaza Strip the whole time.

eta - of course the disengagement was cow-tailing to the two-state solution, as well.