Gaza under attack yet again.

[ViolentPanda]

Is that really necessary?

Yes, it appears that it is.
If you talk like an utter fucking schmuck, you'll get called one. it's as simple as that.

 

[Spymaster]

Yes, it appears that it is.
If you talk like an utter fucking schmuck, you'll get called one. it's as simple as that.

Sorry fella, you're going on ignore. My first for many years.

 

[iROBOT]

Sorry fella, you're going on ignore. My first for many years.

I must say, name calling and rudeness is very (to put it politly) unimaginative.
Edit to add...
But hell its Urban, so go with the flow.....

 

[ViolentPanda]

Not accourding to the second paragraph I quoted of their charter, it mentions "Israel" and not Zionism.

Go back and read my reply.

What you've quoted is a translation.
It's a translation provided by an organisation called MEMRI.
Please google them, and you may get an inkling of why I'm not impressed by their translation of the charter.

 

[quiquaquo]

What you've quoted is a translation.
It's a translation provided by an organisation called MEMRI.
Please google them, and you may get an inkling of why I'm not impressed by their translation of the charter.

In fact it's almost impossible to get a translation, I've tried but virtually all results are abridged and/or from US or Israeli sites.

 

[iROBOT]

What you've quoted is a translation.
It's a translation provided by an organisation called MEMRI.
Please google them, and you may get an inkling of why I'm not impressed by their translation of the charter.

i know about MEMRI they report on anti-semitism (amounst other things) in the Muslim world.

Ok from wiki then...

Statements about Israel[edit]
The Preamble to the Charter states: ″Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam invalidates it, just as it invalidated others before it″.
Anti-Semitism claims[edit]
According to Abraham Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League, "The Hamas credo is not just anti-Israel, but profoundly anti-Semitic with racism at its core. The Hamas Charter reads like a modern-day 'Mein Kampf.'" According to the charter, Jewish people "have only negative traits and are presented as planning to take over the world."[26] The charter claims that the Jews deserve God’s/Allah’s enmity and wrath because they received the Scriptures but violated its sacred texts, disbelieved the signs of Allah, and slew their own prophets.[27] "The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, 'O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.' Only the Gharkad tree would not do that, because it is one of the trees of the Jews."(related by al-Bukhari and Muslim)[28]
The charter contains references to anti-Semitic canards, such as the assertion that through shrewd manipulation of imperial countries and secret societies, Jews were behind a wide range of events and disasters going as far back in history as the French Revolution. The document also quotes Islamic religious texts to provide justification for fighting against and killing the Jews, without distinction of whether they are in Israel or elsewhere.[29] It presents the Arab-Israeli conflict as an inherently irreconcilable struggle between Jews and Muslims, and Judaism and Islam, adding that the only way to engage in this struggle between "truth and falsehood" is through Islam and by means of jihad, until victory or martyrdom.

 

[ViolentPanda]

In fact it's almost impossible to get a translation, I've tried but virtually all results are abridged and/or from US or Israeli sites.

And as I said to weltweit last week, the only translation I had (from an Arabic-speaking friend) didn't mention Israel or Israelis at all, but couched everything in terms of Zionists and Zionism, which makes a fair bit more sense if you're actually acquainted with al-Banna's writings (I've read some of his more politics-leaning stuff when studying the Muslim Brotherhood).

 

[iROBOT]

And as I said to weltweit last week, the only translation I had (from an Arabic-speaking friend) didn't mention Israel or Israelis at all, but couched everything in terms of Zionists and Zionism, which makes a fair bit more sense if you're actually acquainted with al-Banna's writings (I've read some of his more politics-leaning stuff when studying the Muslim Brotherhood).

Can you post up the Arabic that you got your Arab buddy to translate? (or maybe a link?)

 

[ViolentPanda]

i know about MEMRI they report on anti-semitism in the Muslim world.

Ok from wiki then...

Statements about Israel[edit]
The Preamble to the Charter states: ″Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam invalidates it, just as it invalidated others before it″.
Anti-Semitism claims[edit]
According to Abraham Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League, "The Hamas credo is not just anti-Israel, but profoundly anti-Semitic with racism at its core. The Hamas Charter reads like a modern-day 'Mein Kampf.'" According to the charter, Jewish people "have only negative traits and are presented as planning to take over the world."[26] The charter claims that the Jews deserve God’s/Allah’s enmity and wrath because they received the Scriptures but violated its sacred texts, disbelieved the signs of Allah, and slew their own prophets.[27] "The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, 'O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.' Only the Gharkad tree would not do that, because it is one of the trees of the Jews."(related by al-Bukhari and Muslim)[28]

http://www.urban75.net/forums/#cite_note-28

Are you aware of what the "Anti-Defamation League" are? They're naked propagandists for the state of Israel. Their function is to provide a "front" through which academics and the media can be challenged if the say something about the state of Israel that the state of Israel doesn't like.

The charter contains references to anti-Semitic canards, such as the assertion that through shrewd manipulation of imperial countries and secret societies, Jews were behind a wide range of events and disasters going as far back in history as the French Revolution. The document also quotes Islamic religious texts to provide justification for fighting against and killing the Jews, without distinction of whether they are in Israel or elsewhere.[29] It presents the Arab-Israeli conflict as an inherently irreconcilable struggle between Jews and Muslims, and Judaism and Islam, adding that the only way to engage in this struggle between "truth and falsehood" is through Islam and by means of jihad, until victory or martyrdom.

Yes, thanks for quoting that wiki.

Now, did you check any of the sources cited, to see whether they were substantial and substantiable?

 

[iROBOT]

Are you aware of what the "Anti-Defamation League" are? They're naked propagandists for the state of Israel. Their function is to provide a "front" through which academics and the media can be challenged if the say something about the state of Israel that the state of Israel doesn't like.



Yes, thanks for quoting that wiki.

Now, did you check any of the sources cited, to see whether they were substantial and substantiable?

Yes the ADL are Isreali backed and no doubt they over state some issues, maybe it was unwise to include them.

What about that quote? Can you link me to the Arabic version of the Charter?

 

[iROBOT]

Are you aware of what the "Anti-Defamation League" are? They're naked propagandists for the state of Israel. Their function is to provide a "front" through which academics and the media can be challenged if the say something about the state of Israel that the state of Israel doesn't like.



Yes, thanks for quoting that wiki.

Now, did you check any of the sources cited, to see whether they were substantial and substantiable?

While Im about (for a while) do you also refute that Hamas endorse ""Protocols of the Elders of Zion"," in their charter?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Can you post up the Arabic that you got your Arab buddy to translate? (or maybe a link?)

It'd be difficult, given (as I believe I mentioned earlier in the thread) that he did it 20 years ago, that I have 55 boxes of documents in storage from when I moved 18 years ago, and don't have the physical wherewithal to sort through them all for more "important" stuff, let alone that.
Oh, and I said he was an Arabic speaker, I didn't say he was an Arab. Don't make assumptions.

 

[iROBOT]

It'd be difficult, given (as I believe I mentioned earlier in the thread) that he did it 20 years ago, that I have 55 boxes of documents in storage from when I moved 18 years ago, and don't have the physical wherewithal to sort through them all for more "important" stuff, let alone that.
Oh, and I said he was an Arabic speaker, I didn't say he was an Arab. Don't make assumptions.

Ok "Arabic speaking buddy" Feel better now? Good.

Cheers of the feedback on the Arabic version of the Hamas charter. I've been trying to find it but cant.

 

[ViolentPanda]

While Im about (for a while) do you also refute that Hamas endorse ""Protocols of the Elders of Zion"," in their charter?

Glad to see you edited the correct name in before you looked too silly.
No, I don't refute that the translation you've read shows the charter to endorse the views of The Protocols. I don't even refute that the translation I commissioned made mention of various anti-Semitic tropes - such tropes have been common currency in parts of the Middle East, Europe and indeed the USA for at least a century and a half, especially in the former French colonial territories.
Thing is, conspiracy-theorising along the lines of "it was the Jews that did it" is easily-refutable bollocks to anyone with an ounce of sense and the courage to open their mouths. I've seen no reflection in HAMAS's political and military behaviour of an adherence to anti-Semitic tropes, unless you class resisting Israeli aggression as anti-Semitic. HAve I seen anti-Zionist actions and rhetoric from HAMAS? Yes, and they're not the same thing as anti-Semitism, however wildly you or anyone else waves a copy of The Protocols and implies that they inform HAMAS's actions.

 

[uk benzo]

i know about MEMRI they report on anti-semitism (amounst other things) in the Muslim world.

Ok from wiki then...

Statements about Israel[edit]
The Preamble to the Charter states: ″Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam invalidates it, just as it invalidated others before it″.
Anti-Semitism claims[edit]
According to Abraham Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League, "The Hamas credo is not just anti-Israel, but profoundly anti-Semitic with racism at its core. The Hamas Charter reads like a modern-day 'Mein Kampf.'" According to the charter, Jewish people "have only negative traits and are presented as planning to take over the world."[26] The charter claims that the Jews deserve God’s/Allah’s enmity and wrath because they received the Scriptures but violated its sacred texts, disbelieved the signs of Allah, and slew their own prophets.[27] "The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, 'O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.' Only the Gharkad tree would not do that, because it is one of the trees of the Jews."(related by al-Bukhari and Muslim)[28]
The charter contains references to anti-Semitic canards, such as the assertion that through shrewd manipulation of imperial countries and secret societies, Jews were behind a wide range of events and disasters going as far back in history as the French Revolution. The document also quotes Islamic religious texts to provide justification for fighting against and killing the Jews, without distinction of whether they are in Israel or elsewhere.[29] It presents the Arab-Israeli conflict as an inherently irreconcilable struggle between Jews and Muslims, and Judaism and Islam, adding that the only way to engage in this struggle between "truth and falsehood" is through Islam and by means of jihad, until victory or martyrdom.

Hahaha you joker!

Next you'll be asking us to take you seriously when you quote passages from Pamela Geller and Anne Coulter.

 

[iROBOT]

Glad to see you edited the correct name in before you looked too silly..

I've always called it "The Articles of Zion" but knowing you were a cheap point scoring pedant I thought i'd change it. Thank you for not dispointing me.

Your other points are interesting.

 

[iROBOT]

Hahaha you joker!

Next you'll be asking us to take you seriously when you quote passages from Pamela Geller and Anne Coulter.

Of all the years I've been on here, I've never quoted the two individuals you mention, and never will

 

[Grandma Death]

Thousands of Gazans would die anyway, through waterborne disease and gradual malnutrition; through lack of proper medical facilities and treatment. Gazans voting for HAMAS were well aware that they were voting for a conflict situation, yet they still voted for them. Ask yourself why.
And sure, the state of Israel is certainly achieving something - it's just instituted a buffer zone between the "peace wall" and Gazan dwellings - it's grabbed more land to eventually build settlements on.

I don't believe for one minute gazans voted for conflict on this scale with loss of life so great.

 

[weltweit]

Pressure from where? They don't give a shit about world opinion or law. The Israeli public support these actions massively. I see no pressure whatsoever on Israel.

I think you may have misunderstood me. Hamas rockets cause Israeli civilians disturbance, disquiet, and the need to run to bomb shelters. It is the Israeli civilians that put pressure on the Israeli regime to stop Hamas's rockets.

 

[Spymaster]

I don't believe for one minute gazans voted for conflict on this scale with loss of life so great.

Not only that, they haven't been given the chance to vote out hamas. Agricola reckons hamas would win another landslide now. Really?

They'll likely lose more land, a few thousand dead, living constantly in fear and the same shitty conditions, blockades still in place if not tighter, and little reasonable hope of change with hamas in place. Is all that really better to the average man on the ground than Fatah?

All this talk of the rocketing putting internal pressure on the Israeli government but if you read posts here and some sections of the Israeli media you'd be forgiven for thinking that the weight of internal pressure is for the government to wipe out hamas, not ease the blockades.

 

[RhymnRzn]

Not only that, they haven't been given the chance to vote out hamas. Agricola reckons hamas would win another landslide now. Really?

They'll likely lose more land, a few thousand dead, living constantly in fear and the same shitty conditions, blockades still in place if not tighter, and little reasonable hope of change with hamas in place. Is all that really better to the average man on the ground than Fatah?

All this talk of the rocketing putting internal pressure on the Israeli government but if you read posts here and some sections of the Israeli media you'd be forgiven for thinking that the weight of internal pressure is for the government to wipe out hamas, not ease the blockades.

erm, if you were standing in front of the fierce countenance of a juggernaut figure, and having watched your neighbors have their bones whittled and scattered like wood, what would you do, lie prostrate, and beg for mercy?

 

[agricola]

Not only that, they haven't been given the chance to vote out hamas. Agricola reckons hamas would win another landslide now. Really?

They'll likely lose more land, a few thousand dead, living constantly in fear and the same shitty conditions, blockades still in place if not tighter, and little reasonable hope of change with hamas in place. Is all that really better to the average man on the ground than Fatah?

All this talk of the rocketing putting internal pressure on the Israeli government but if you read posts here and some sections of the Israeli media you'd be forgiven for thinking that the weight of internal pressure is for the government to wipe out hamas, not ease the blockades.

The point you are missing is that the choice is between:

i)having nothing, seeing settlements expand, having ineffective negotiations with the occupier whilst being ruled by a corrupt regime,
ii)having nothing, being bombed every couple of years, having somewhat more effective negotiations but having a bit of a pop back at the enemy as well, whilst being ruled by a considerably less corrupt regime

Most people would prefer option (ii), wherever they are in the world. If there is an election at the end of the year - and its hard to see how they will let one take place, or at least let one as free and fair as the last one was - Hamas will probably win it.

 

[Spymaster]

erm, if you were standing in front of the fierce countenance of a juggernaut figure, and having watched your neighbors have their bones whittled and scattered like wood, what would you do, lie prostrate, and beg for mercy?

I'd probably think that the solutions being attempted by the current lot are making things worse, not better, and look to others to try something else.

 

[Grandma Death]

erm, if you were standing in front of the fierce countenance of a juggernaut figure, and having watched your neighbors have their bones whittled and scattered like wood, what would you do, lie prostrate, and beg for mercy?

No probably not. But you'd weigh up your chances and the chances of losses before you fightback. Something hamas seems to not quite comprehend. They will always come out of this the losers in the militarily sense. Worse still they keep on insisting on going down this route that is resulting in massive loss of human life. The ultimate responsibility for loss of human life does however lay with the side that has the biggest guns. But the Israeli state has proven itself to be massively ruthless when it comes to conflict. So at some point you'd think hamas would step back and think what they hope to achieve attacking a side that shows no mercy whatsoever.

 

[RhymnRzn]

I'd probably think that the solutions being attempted by the current lot are making things worse, not better, and look to others to try something else.

yes no doubt, but the greater sin is on behalf of israel, and until that is addressed, you should sympathize

 

[butchersapron]

Maybe you should set up an international relations think tank spymaster, one that could produce such informed views as well the problem is they shouldn't vote for hamas should they?

What happens when they don't? When hamas support grows? As it has, not only in gaza but on the west bank. Well the problem is they shouldn't support hamas should they?

This is the analysis of a child.

 

[ddraig]

they should of course shut up and accept their fate from their betters
and doff their caps whilst doing so

 

[ddraig]

Swansea activist arrested (and released) for doing this on new bbc site in Cardiff bay today

 

[agricola]

No probably not. But you'd weigh up your chances and the chances of losses before you fightback. Something hamas seems to not quite comprehend. They will always come out of this the losers in the militarily sense. Worse still they keep on insisting on going down this route that is resulting in massive loss of human life. The ultimate responsibility for loss of human life does however lay with the side that has the biggest guns. But the Israeli state has proven itself to be massively ruthless when it comes to conflict. So at some point you'd think hamas would step back and think what they hope to achieve attacking a side that shows no mercy whatsoever.

Rather than view this from a military sense, look at it with the question "Which course of action is most likely to result in meaningful negotiations taking place?" in mind.

 

[Spymaster]

yes no doubt, but the greater sin is on behalf of israel, and until that is addressed, you should sympathize

Oh I certainly sympathize. As I said before I just don't see it as an issue that will ever be resolved by the current methods.