Gaza under attack yet again.

[ViolentPanda]

well the problem is they shouldn't vote for hamas should they?

Much better to vote for FATAH's millionaire quislings and accommodationists, surely?

 

[Spymaster]

well the problem is they shouldn't vote for hamas should they?

"Well they should vote for hamas because that way they're fighting back and retaining a modicum of self respect whilst getting slaughtered".

 

[butchersapron]

"Well they should vote for hamas because that way they're fighting back and retaining a modicum of self respect whilst getting slaughtered".

Problem is, you actually said the first, i never said the second and don't believe it. Now what?

 

[Grandma Death]

I haven't claimed that they voted for conflict. I claimed that they voted in the knowledge that conflict would take place.
And surely what you believe is irrelevant? What Gazans believe is what matters.

We're discussing the conflict vp. I'm allowed to voice opinion without being shut down on the basis of my views being irrelevant because I'm not a Gazan.

 

[Spymaster]

Problem is, you actually said the first, i never said the second and don't believe it. Now what?

What do you believe they should do?

 

[butchersapron]

There are - i think, no gazans on this thread - the only person who sought to close voices down (kalfindin) is, i hope, gone for good.

 

[butchersapron]

What do you believe they should do?

well the problem is they shouldn't vote for hamas should they?

 

[nino_savatte]

Putting people in ghettoes, then shrinking the ghetto.
Providing a minimal ration.
Forcing the ghetto's inmates to police themselves with help from a quisling class.

Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

I am.

 

[Spymaster]

well the problem is they shouldn't vote for hamas should they?

"Well they should vote for hamas because that way they're fighting back and retaining a modicum of self respect whilst getting slaughtered".

 

[butchersapron]

"Well they should vote for hamas because that way they're fighting back and retaining a modicum of self respect whilst getting slaughtered".

I've just dealt with that one. You might as well say 'vote lib-dem' if it doesn't refer to me.

 

[Spymaster]

I've just dealt with that one. You might as well say 'vote lib-dem' if it doesn't refer to me.

What do you believe they should do?

 

[Grandma Death]

I'll repeat what I've said on every other thread touching on insurgency.
The insurgent doesn't have to win, all they need do is not lose. This is something acknowledged by strategists for two and a half thousand years - that the fact of insurgency itself places a disproportionate cost on the colonising society. In the state of Israel's case we've seen some new costs emerge this time around, with the air traffic issue, andf the consequent pressure from the tourism industry to reach an accommodation.

OK. Very good point. I take that on board. So hamas aren't obliterated. They're still here. But my point is are they gaining any real traction? And if they are it's at a huge cost. But I still don't get it. If they are taking a calculated political risk they are doing so on the back of the lives of innocent people. It's that aspect I can't get my head around

 

[Grandma Death]

I haven't claimed that they voted for conflict. I claimed that they voted in the knowledge that conflict would take place.
And surely what you believe is irrelevant? What Gazans believe is what matters.

Do you think that when they voted knowing 'conflict would take place' they anticipated it'd be on this scale and at this cost? I'm not convinced they did.

 

[iROBOT]

Rather than view this from a military sense, look at it with the question "Which course of action is most likely to result in meaningful negotiations taking place?" in mind.

In other words, don't just look at it militarily, look at it politically.
Mind you, I think that some people tend to divorce the military and the political in their thinking, as if there's an actual divide between the two in any modern nation-state. The truth is that under our present run of political systems, the military and the political are sometimes inseparable. You can't consider one without taking account of the other, and that includes considering whether military action constitutes a political answer to some situations

I refer you back to the Hamas covenant and it makes it clear that there is no path of negotiation.
(This is from Yale University which I belive is quite respected? I'm sure you'll tell me that it's been infultrated by Zionists...)


Peaceful Solutions, Initiatives and International Conferences:
Article Thirteen:
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."
Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?
"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).
There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp​

 

[butchersapron]

What do you believe they should do?

I'm more interested in why you invented a position for me. Can you tell me?

 

[Doctor Carrot]

I refer you back to the Hamas covenant and it makes it clear that there is no path of negociation.

(This is from Yale University which I belive is quite respected? I'm sure you'll tell me that it's been infultrated by Zionists...)


Peaceful Solutions, Initiatives and International Conferences:
Article Thirteen:
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."
Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?
"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).
There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp​

Oh god get off this fucking covenant shit. It's absolutely meaningless when the Likud covenant says exactly the same thing.

 

[iROBOT]

Oh god get off this fucking covenant shit. It's absolutely meaningless when the Likud covenant says exactly the same thing.

So they both want to eradicate each other? What a surprise.

Post it up and let's have a read then.

 

[Spymaster]

I'm more interested in why you invented a position for me. Can you tell me?

Sure. Because in the absence of your stating it, despite repeated requests, I'm going to assume that it's the opposite of the one that you're repeatedly quoting as mine.

What do you think they should do?

 

[Doctor Carrot]

So they both want to eradicate each other? What a surprise.

Post it up and let's have a read then.

It's fucking pointless because it's just rhetoric but I'll show you anyway:

http://www.juancole.com/2014/08/charter-destruction-palestinian.html

If you don't trust that source then just use google.

Now ignore the rhetoric and look at actions. Who is doing more to try and reach a settlement? Israel or the Palestinians including Hamas?

 

[butchersapron]

Sure. Because in the absence of your stating it despite repeated requests, I'm going to assume that it's the opposite of the one that you're repeatedly quoting as mine.

What do you think they should do.

In the absence of something you're going to make something up? Do you think that this is a wise way to proceed? And given that your assumptions ended up producing pretty much the exact opposite of what i think, do you think this will be a method you'll chose to employ in the future?

And the difference is spymaster, the quote i repeatedly used it a direct allusion to what you posted this morning - a statement of your views.

 

[Spymaster]

In the absence of something you're going to make something up? Do you think that this is a wise way to proceed?

Maybe, maybe not, but that's what I'm going to do. Two can play your silly games.

And given that your assumptions ended up producing pretty much the exact opposite of what i think ...

Really? Want to expand on that?

 

[butchersapron]

Maybe, maybe not, but that's what I'm going to do. Two can play your silly games.



Really? Want to expand on that?

What silly games? Your posts on here since this morning have been a joke. I've helped - among others - expose why they are (you didn't even know why the rockets started again ffs). Seriously, saying that you have a methodology to produce what others think that produces the 100% opposite of what they believe, and still you say that you may think about using it again. From post #1 of yours this was going to happen. Go to the pub and be the annoying truth speaking contrarian there please. You're out of your depth here.

 

[iROBOT]

It's fucking pointless because it's just rhetoric but I'll show you anyway:

http://www.juancole.com/2014/08/charter-destruction-palestinian.html

If you don't trust that source then just use google.

Now ignore the rhetoric and look at actions. Who is doing more to try and reach a settlement? Israel or the Palestinians including Hamas?

Funnly enough I was reading that exact page and found it wanting in detail.

From what I know Likud hasn’t changed its position visa-vie their charter and with the above quote from Hama's charter, the region is doomed.
I have criticized Israel as being way too heavy handed in this and indeed have called them cunts (both of them) but it seem that only my comments on Hamas has elicited any reaction.
Believe it or not I'm neutral, veering towards the Gazains for the suffering Israel is (unnecessary) inflicting on them

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Funnly enough I was reading that exact page and found it wanting in detail.

From what I know Likud hasnt changed it's position visa-vie their charter and with the above quote from Hama's charter, the region is doomed.

I have slagged off Ireal

The point is though it's meaningless. Look at the actions of the two parties. Who's made more efforts to reach a settlement?

 

[iROBOT]

The point is though it's meaningless. Look at the actions of the two parties. Who's made more efforts to reach a settlement?

My 'puter froze and had to end my last post half done, please re-read. I have no dog in this fight. Only seeing it from the outside as it is.

 

[Spymaster]

Seriously, saying that you have a methodology to produce what others think that produces the 100% opposite of what they believe, and still you say that you may think about using it again.

Is that what I've said then? Are you really, really sure?

I've told you before that you're here for my amusement and not the other way round. So you either engage with me on my terms, disengage, or we keep fucking about like this. I don't care which!

So what would you do if you were Gazan?

Go to the pub

And miss this with you? Not a chance.

I've got the beers in.

 

[butchersapron]

Sounds like you've got the coke in too if your memory is this bad:

The unity government isn't working because it's that, hamas need to go away!

 

[iROBOT]

Nothing stops me from going to the pub...

As-salamu alaykum & shalom brothers and sisters

 

[Spymaster]

Sounds like you've got the coke in too if your memory is this bad:

I don't do coke anymore.

Nice bit of quoting though. And ....?

 

[Doctor Carrot]

My 'puter froze and had to end my last post half done, please re-read. I have no dog in this fight. Only seeing it from the outside as it is.

My point still stands. I have no love lost for Hamas I'm just analysing, although yes I'm on the side of the oppressed in this situation. I'll ask you for a third time, who is making more efforts for a peaceful settlement to this?