Gaza under attack yet again.

[frogwoman]

If its spokepeople make racist statements, that makes it a racist organisation, why is the UK taxpayer funding this ?

Also some of its members are ex IDF murdering bastards.

Fuck knows.

It's replaced the police in providing security for UK synagogues. They are a charity that provides security for Jewish events and records antisemitic incidents as well as provide advice etc, the police don't generally do this. They also train volunteers from synagogues etc in for example kicking out troublemakers etc. They have a helpline and were very helpful when I had some antisemitic abuse at work

I don't like the state of affairs where they exist but saying they are all Zionist scum a bit simplistic, I know lots of people who have done training courses through them and they're not cunts. It's the nature of the organization and its mission statement etc that scum like that will end up working there.

 

[Kalfindin]

Yeah I try and avoid using the word, zionist, not always successfully I might add, and instead just stick to using the word Israeli. I always think of conspiranoids when I see the word, zionist and David Icke's voice saying 'Rothschild Zionist' pops into my head too much. I can do without assisting consipraloons and hasbara at the same time.

By using the word Israeli you are lumping together the more progressive types who go on peace marches etc in Israel with the murderers. The word Zionist distinguishes.

 

[frogwoman]

But who is saying it isn't happening?

'Paranoia' etc.

 

[Ax^]

Fuck knows.

It's replaced the police in providing security for UK synagogues. They are a charity that provides security for Jewish events and records antisemitic incidents as well as provide advice etc, the police don't generally do this. They also train volunteers from synagogues etc in for example kicking out troublemakers etc. They have a helpline and were very helpful when I had some antisemitic abuse at work

I don't like the state of affairs where they exist but saying they are all Zionist scum a bit simplistic, I know lots of people who have done training courses through them and they're not cunts. It's the nature of the organization and its mission statement etc that scum like that will end up working there.

just like the police then

 

[frogwoman]

just like the police then

Not exactly.

CST have been going for 30 odd years and I think its worth investigating whether they and similar organizations could provide a model for 'faith based' privatized policing

Ugh

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

Obviously I condem all racism and sectariamism, but the community security trust its itself a racist Zionist organisation.

http://azvsas.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/zionist-communist-security-trust-in.html

Sydney Morning Herald, 16.2.07. ‘Limit Muslim migration, Australia warned. The CST's Professor Israeli was also quoted as saying that ‘Muslim immigrants had a reputation for manipulating the values of Western countries, taking advantage of their hospitality and tolerance.

The Guardian is less informed than a blogspot?....I'd like to read the entire article.. one nut in Australia doesnt make an entire organisation racist.

The Guardian report is from British sources ..... probably more valid in terms of figures quoted relating to antisemitism in the UK. .

 

[frogwoman]

By using the word Israeli you are lumping together the more progressive types who go on peace marches etc in Israel with the murderers. The word Zionist distinguishes.

The word Zionist has a lot of really dodgy connotations these days though.

Better to say supporters of the Israeli state but Thats a bit of a mouthful.

 

[laptop]

'Paranoia' etc.

Gotcha.

But the Community Security Trust does foster paranaoia. Whatever shit is happening, it'll amplify it.

It's how it makes its living.

 

[Ax^]

possibly but my own knowledge of community raised own policing has never really lead to the positive steps forward it was intend to resolve

most of these group tend to attract as well as people with good intentions plenty of power tripper fuckwits

 

[Doctor Carrot]

By using the word Israeli you are lumping together the more progressive types who go on peace marches etc in Israel with the murderers. The word Zionist distinguishes.

All seven of them!? How terrible of me!

 

[frogwoman]

Gotcha.

But the Community Security Trust does foster paranaoia. Whatever shit is happening, it'll amplify it.

It's how it makes its living.

I'm not sure - in their last couple of reports they said it had gone down. And they are generally at pains to point out they don't think anti Zionism is antisemitism necessarily.

However you are right in that they need a reason to justify their existence. Sadly I don't think they have to look very far

 

[Kalfindin]

Fuck knows.

It's replaced the police in providing security for UK synagogues. They are a charity that provides security for Jewish events and records antisemitic incidents as well as provide advice etc, the police don't generally do this. They also train volunteers from synagogues etc in for example kicking out troublemakers etc. They have a helpline and were very helpful when I had some antisemitic abuse at work

I don't like the state of affairs where they exist but saying they are all Zionist scum a bit simplistic, I know lots of people who have done training courses through them and they're not cunts. It's the nature of the organization and its mission statement etc that scum like that will end up working there.

Wow, just imag

The Guardian is less informed than a blogspot?....I'd like to read the entire article.. one nut in Australia doesnt make an entire organisation racist.

The Guardian report is from British sources ..... probably more valid in terms of figures quoted relating to antisemitism in the UK. .

You think Tony Greenstein is lying ?

CST Harassment of Anti-Zionist JewsBelow is the experience of 2 Jewish activists, Deborah Fink & Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi, of Jews for Boycotting Israeli Goods, of harassment by the Community Security Thugs, whose alleged remit is to prevent ‘anti-Semitic’ attacks on the Jewish community. As can be seen, their real role is to innoculate the Jewish community from anti-Zionists and non-Zionists such as Jews for Justice for Palestinians and the Jewish Socialists Group.

http://azvsas.blogspot.co.uk/2009/03/community-security-trust-policeman-of.html

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

Gotcha.

But the Community Security Trust does foster paranaoia. Whatever shit is happening, it'll amplify it.

It's how it makes its living.

I think counting antisemitic incidents is a way of recording them. You think they should just ignore them? Or what? Bear in mind that the Jewish people have a right to be a bit paranoid considering their treatment at the hands of the Nazis.

 

[Kalfindin]

I think counting antisemitic incidents is a way of recording them. You think they should just ignore them? Or what? Bear in mind that the Jewish people have a right to be a bit paranoid considering their treatment at the hands of the Nazis.

As do trade unionists, gay people, Jehovah's Witnesses, the handicapped, gypsies, communists and many others. They dont have their own Police force.

 

[frogwoman]

I am not really a fan of tony greenstein tbh. belboid and butchersapron know more but I wouldn't use him as a source on anything.

Cst have come in for a fair amount of criticism from for example this:

Http://www.thejc.com/comment-and-columnists/50033/continually-spreading-trust

 

[Ax^]

I think counting antisemitic incidents is a way of recording them. You think they should just ignore them? Or what? Bear in mind that the Jewish people have a right to be a bit paranoid considering their treatment at the hands of the Nazis.

self godwin

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

As do trade unionists, gay people, the handicapped, gypsies, communists and many others. They dont have their own Police force.

Originally you asked about the rise in antisemetism....
Do you feel that the CST is lying about assaults and attacks on Jews?

 

[uk benzo]

I don't really think it helps anyone to say this shit isn't happening when it plainly is

But what I don't get is why European jewry don't make real efforts to clean up their own backyards so to speak. If the representatives put out some sort of communique to say that the deaths of innocents in Ghazza is abhorrent, they'd get hugs and kisses from the majority of Muslims in this country. Instead the majority of the jewry follow hasbara talking points, conflating zionism with antisemitism etc. In short and long term, that's just going to increase antisemitic attacks, particularly from the youth who don't know how to channel their frustrations in productive ways.

 

[Kalfindin]

Originally you asked about the rise in antisemetism....
Do you feel that the CST is lying about assaults and attacks on Jews?

I was responding to your posted which seemed to hint that the Jewish community in Britain needed their own security force because of WW2.

I dont dispute their are racial attacks against Jews, blacks, Muslims, or anyone else. But I dont trust the CST to spin it for victimhood at a time when Israel is murdering at will.

 

[uk benzo]

Yeah I try and avoid using the word, zionist, not always successfully I might add, and instead just stick to using the word Israeli. I always think of conspiranoids when I see the word, zionist and David Icke's voice saying 'Rothschild Zionist' pops into my head too much. I can do without assisting consipraloons and hasbara at the same time.

I use the word zionist because it's a philosophy. There are Christian, muslim and atheist zionist - nowt to do with Judaism.

 

[frogwoman]

But what I don't get is why European jewry don't make real efforts to clean up their own backyards so to speak. If the representatives put out some sort of communique to say that the deaths of innocents in Ghazza is abhorrent, they'd get hugs and kisses from the majority of Muslims in this country. Instead the majority of the jewry follow hasbara talking points, conflating zionism with antisemitism etc. In short and long term, that's just going to increase antisemitic attacks, particularly from the youth who don't know how to channel their frustrations in productive ways.

Increasingly people are doing this and individuals, rabbis, synagogues etc on an individual basis but largely without the support of the leaders of the organisations.

As for why the representatives don't say it I honestly don't know, I think a lot of it is about money and prestige within the Jewish community that they think they would lose if they criticised israel. Also as I have said the 'interests' of these community organisations have become deeply entwined with the israeli state and capital. For example the whole UJIA/plant a tree in Israel type shit

I wish I knew what was keeping them doing it, i am very angry at the mo. I think also a lot of them are stuck in the past and can't think any other way

Pisses me off though how insidious its become, went to a Jewish retreat thing earlier in the year and they were pushing birthright

 

[laptop]

I am not really a fan of tony greenstein tbh. belboid and butchersapron know more but I wouldn't use him as a source on anything.

Cst have come in for a fair amount of criticism from for example this:

Http://www.thejc.com/comment-and-columnists/50033/continually-spreading-trust

Actually http://www.thejc.com/comment-and-debate/columnists/50033/continually-spreading-trust

It's a tough one. It definitely looks like an organisation with - from the JC piece alone - strong financial and reputational incentives to amplify fear.

(bubblesmcgrath : note that the Guardian story has just once source for any figures: the JST.)

And that's before we start with deeper politics. Does it in fact have an agenda to encourage people to move to Israel?

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

I was responding to your posted which seemed to hint that the Jewish community in Britain needed their own security force because of WW2.

I dont dispute their are racial attacks against Jews, blacks, Muslims, or anyone else. But I dont trust the CST to spin it for victimhood at a time when Israel is murdering at will.

Considering they reported a drop in antisemitism for last year I think they're not manipulating anything. But if someone has proof that the figures for this year are inaccurate or manipulated.......?
Then obviously that would be a different story....

 

[frogwoman]

I don't think they are manipulating figures to be honest. If anything this stuff with be underreported. Most crime of this sort never gets reported. And in any case they don't enjoy great relations with hasidim etc (mostly anti zionist) who will be the chief targets for this sort of abuse.

However it is how these figures are interpreted and the political conclusions drawn

 

[laptop]

I don't think they are manipulating figures to be honest. If anything this stuff with be underreported.

Here, we're scarily close to definitional issues around sexual assault. Let's not go there

However it is how these figures are interpreted and the political conclusions drawn

Indeed.

And I've just caught up with that Economist piece:

Vivian Wineman, who heads the Board of Deputies of British Jews, the umbrella body of British Jewry, notes that spikes in anti-Jewish attacks correlate to bouts of fighting in the Middle East.

His French counterpart, Roger Cukierman, says public attitudes are driven “by the images of Palestinian babies on television, which makes [people] very angry.”

It is the actions of the State of Israel that pose the biggest threat at present, say these two people, neither of whom is likely to be antisemitic.

 

[coley]

What I meant was: one of the major things that keeps Jews in the diaspora from seeing through the Hasbara smokescreen is the constant reporting in Jewish media of every slight and wrong look - as well as every attack on a Jew, every desecration of a cemetery, and serious shit like that. I've heard "this is how it starts..." in response to that. [E2A: do I have to spell out what it is?]

And... dodgy ground in this context, but there is a stereotype of people who are strongly Jewish-identified insisting that everything must be discussed in terms of Jewishness. And the stereotype wouldn't flourish without fertile ground.

Or, to put it more directly, American secular non-aliyah-making Jews in particular wryly recognise my half-serious description of the State of Israel as "the worst piece of attention-seeking behaviour in history". And, for that matter, "the longest, loudest kvetch".

Sorry, I half understand your reply, but I am unfamiliar with some of the terms/words you use, like I said, ordinary folk are beginning to see beyond the smokescreen,
Ordinary folk being people without the in depth knowledge of the whole ME scenario, who have in the past blithely supported Israel as 'one of us, surrounded by bloodthirsty Islamic terrorists' who are now being rudely awakened.

 

[weltweit]

Hoping this cease fire lasts a bit longer than the previous ones.

 

[laptop]

Sorry, I half understand your reply, but I am unfamiliar with some of the terms/words you use, like I said, ordinary folk are beginning to see beyond the smokescreen,

Ordinary folk being people without the in depth knowledge of the whole ME scenario, who have in the past blithely supported Israel as 'one of us, surrounded by bloodthirsty Islamic terrorists' who are now being rudely awakened.

Your response was to a post of mine that was specifically about how people who identify as Jewish respond to fear.

(The implication, for those who do follow these things, was that the political project of Zionism exploits this. It promotes the idea that criticism of the State of Israel is criticism of Jews - yes you personally over there - thus making such criticism unthinkable.)

I observe that Jews can be "ordinary people" - though my post was partly about how some Jews find the idea horrifying

 

[DrRingDing]

Latest from the Snowden files. Damning of the PA and more.........

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/08/04/cash-weapons-surveillance/

 

[coley]

Seems Gaza is being forgotten and anti semitism is now the " hot topic?"
Just a thought.