agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Sorry, what hypothetical scenario have I presented?
G20: Getting to the truth- the death of Ian Tomlinson RIP
- Thread starter e19896
- Start date
Sorry, what hypothetical scenario have I presented?
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Ah yes, the minute delay in an ambulance attending, that was so remarkable that the two guys in e19869's interview declined to mention it being delayed, even though they mention the rest of the ambulances' progress.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
They said they saw it be let through police lines. Please watch the video.
winjer
holocene death beat
I'm aware of eight more who have made such statements. How many statements are there that say he wasn't assaulted?
How so? Where are the photos which support him ending up on the ground at Royal Exchange Buildings through anything other than police action?
winjer
holocene death beat
I have, I was there when it was made. I've also seen the video of the ambulance being told to go in another direction, so stop lying.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
I am only aware of three, the three that are in the press domain - hence my comment. Are you aware of any publicly accessable versions of the eight you mention?
winjer said:
Are there any pictures of him being assaulted by Police?
The picture shows him on the ground at Royal Exchange, it doesnt show how he got down there. Those elements that are present in the picture do not tend to support the claims that he was caught up in a crowd being pushed back by police.
winjer said:
Lying? Does that video that e19869 posted say something other than what I said it says?
*if* what i have just been told by a mate in the media is correct, there is a video of him being hit by the police about to break this afternoon/evening
winjer
holocene death beat
Not that I know of.
Which elements?
"They said they saw it be let through police lines."
A lie. They say it went through the police line, they don't say "the police immediately let the ambulance through, and those people who say the police held it up are wrong".
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Well then, lets wait for that.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Why are they?
That's because you're using a faulty logic which says that the police wouldn't cause any trouble unless trouble was caused to them first.
My 30-odd years of attending demos has shown me otherwise.
Actually, he wants anarchism, which is a different thing to what you're implying.I think you,enumbers,should have a look at the bigger picture and what the consequences of your fellow knuckle scrapers actions have caused....You want anarchy
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Then you'll forgive me if I dont take your word for it.
winjer said:
The lack of a crowd in that picture? The cop stood there with his hands in his pockets? The lack of a police line?
winjer said:
Ah, so I lied when I said they saw it be let through police lines - because they said they saw it be let through police lines....
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
It's not that hard to understand why people as diverse as agricola (a liberal) and badco (a BNP fellow-traveller) would want to do so. He who controls the discourse controls "mainstream" history.
Not quite, they also have reference to the law, which they can (attempt to) manipulate in their favour.
Divisive Cotton
Now I just have my toy soldiers
This is from April 3 though
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Surely that works for the "cops murdered Ian" crowd as well, though?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
We'll just have to wait and see where the delay issue stands after all the evidence and witness statements are in, won't we?
I mean, you do see that your own rush to draw conclusions is as pointless as those of the people you're having a go at, don't you?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Of course it does.
All we can do and should do at the moment is try to review what facts we have as neutrally as possible, anything else is both pointless and partisan, as is trying to shout down people because they disagree with you/your "side".
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
That would be ideal, yes - though one should point out that I havent rushed to draw any conclusions from this (the LAS point has been answered with evidence from g20witnesses and provided by e19896), and have called for a full IPCC investigation and full inquest into this death.
People had been claiming that the delay in the LAS attending, and the lack of action by police medics, contributed this blokes death. That there may not have been a delay for the LAS, and that police medics did take action to try and save this blokes life, is perhaps relevant no?
winjer
holocene death beat
Who has hands in his pockets? The dog handler on the right?
Moments later:
You claimed they contradicted that it was delayed, they didn't, and the delay is on video, so why try to deny it?
G20 heart attack victim was pushed by police
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/04/07/g20-victim-was-pushed-115875-21259744/
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/04/07/g20-victim-was-pushed-115875-21259744/
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Yep, or at least thats the way it appears.
winjer said:
Thats a better view, but it does raise other questions.
winjer said:
No, I claimed that they didnt mention the delay and that this might mean that it wasnt that noticeable.
xes
F.O.A.D
that, or they're covering their dirty lying killing arses.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
It is worthwhile to see what the IPCC press release that a lot of these reports are based on actually says:
http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/pr060409_tomlinsoninv.htm
winjer
holocene death beat
That's just a bad rewording of the IPCC statement, which is itself bad enough, where is "Royal Exchange Passage"? (rhet.)
so theres at least three independant witnesses who claim the this guy was assaulted and theres a picture of him lying on the floor, in the area where witnesses claim he was assaulted with the people alleged to have assaulted him standing over him
guy appears to have injuries consistant with being assaulted
the suspects appeared to be less than truthful when first describing their version of events and have since changed there story about what happened
if this was a bunch of teenagers rather than coppers wouldnt you be pushing the CPS to bring charges piggy
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
i) They arent standing over him, and please watch winjer's video. How many people would have witnessed the assault?
ii) do you have access to the post mortem details? How can you say "guy appears to have injuries consistant with being assaulted"?
iii) how have the Police changed their story?
iv) if this was a bunch of teenagers I doubt anyone here would be doing anything apart from waiting for an investigation to take place that determined the facts of the matter, as opposed to going off on one. Why dont we, you know, actually go and do that?
I'm no big fan of the police,not by any means.But they are a necessary evil
I just can't help but think if it hadn't been for the likes of enumbers and a small following of knuckle scrapers who think it's there god given right to be violent in public that this bloke may well not be dead.
I think you,enumbers,should have a look at the bigger picture and what the consequences of your fellow knuckle scrapers actions have caused....You want anarchy
I was not there i spoke out at the pointless protest, see underclassrising.net goto the blog it is there, one is an anarchist, i do look at the bigger image, there nither friends of mine, i do not hold with being violent in public either.
When there is no need and here there was none, but then it was the police and there actions that created the circumstance, not the protesters, i disagree with there aims objectives, but i will stand up and say respect for acting how they did ie non violance, and from what ive been told and seen they was kicked and beaten for just siting down.
Let me make it clear i nither suport being violent in public for the sake of it, there is no doubt we are going to have to use force, but i also hope we can negate from there as much as winning over the police, i hold the thought there workers in uniform, but it dose not mean there not scum and can act as such, as we have seen this is why a man is dead not the actions of the protesters.
If you read back through this thread you would see the only people to offer up hypothetical scenarios are those who believe the police to be at fault.
Me,I just think it's a bit shit that a man died full stop.From what i'm seeing im leaning more towards thinking the police did have contact with him but saying that if it wasn't for the actions of a minority of knuckle scrapers perhaps it wouldn't have been the case.
And I stand by saying i'm disgusted at e19whatever using this mans death in an attempt to gain support.....What's next eh?A justice for Ian group on bookface
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