G20: Getting to the truth- the death of Ian Tomlinson RIP

[e19896]

And the freelance photographer who witnessed this happening was too gob smacked to take pictures then?They managed to get pictures of him as he lay dying but not of him being assualted?

Sorry,I don't believe

One is a freelance photographer, and as said people being hit all over the place, ive been told one is very good at what i do protest and football match photography not easy in any given circumstance due to movement, in this circumstance though i was not there i can say in all probality you would not have got the image of Ian being smacked, but all cameras would have turned to a Ian on the ground, as this becomes what you do this is why there are images of him at this time.

From what i have been told by e mail and in person he was hit by the police and this has been given over to the right people, seems from a non news story this is fast becomeing a big one and due to presure, and i know those involved it aint a politcal point being settaled here, a man is dead and in my mind and thoughts killed by the actions of the police on that day, and for me this truth needs to out, for me Ian derserves at least this he was killed and those who did this need to be hold to account, as simple as.

 

[agricola]

actually, the fact the statements don't match precisely makes it much more likely that they are true IMO.

it indicates clearly that these are 3 witnesses truthfully recounting what they witnessed, as opposed to 3 witnesses who've sat together to discuss it first and make sure they got their stories straight.

ie these are not coppers who decide collectively what the story is going to be, to make sure that their stories all match perfectly and corroborate each other despite being utter bullshit.

also - recognition after the event? you mean like every conviction that's ever been based on witnesses coming forward after seeing crime stoppers, or a police appeal for witnesses?

The point I was trying to make is that we arent reading the statements, we are reading (presumably severely) edited highlights of the statements, with the edit made by a third party in a newspaper report who may well have their own take on events / pressures to consider.

As for "recognition after the event", stuff like Crimestoppers and police appeals for witnesses actually has an official ID, usually based on witness albums or other ID procedures, that takes place after the initial ID is made by someone watching Crimewatch / reading the paper etc. Police appeals also rarely contain everything about an incident - but these IDs seem not to have such safeguards.

which photos would these be?

All the photos that have currently been released, none of which show Tomlinson being assaulted by police. Of these, probably this is the most relevant to the allegations made:

The photo appears to be of Tomlinson outside the Royal Exchange, where the assault is alleged to have happened. Of course it doesnt show Tomlinson being assaulted either, but perhaps it is significant that the person who took it (assuming that the person who took it is the same person whose name is on it) is not one of the three people who have been identified as having provided details to the IPCC? (that said, no doubt they will, if they havent already, be speaking to him shortly).

good. fwiw, I get the feeling you're one of the better coppers around. I'm not ACAB at all, I've spent entire weekend sat in event control rooms with some fairly decent coppers (though in fairness they've also proven to be pretty fucking useless when it came to dealing with an emergency and almost cause someone to die by sending the ambulance to the wrong entrance... but I digress). I've also seen exactly how the met operate in these kind of situations, and in my personal and professional opinion, this has been on the cards for a long time.

Thanks for that first bit, though its increasingly clear that the IPCC cannot do anything other than conduct a full inquiry given the circumstances and reporting.

 

[badco]

for me Ian derserves at least this.

On first name terms eh

Quite disgusting though using this mans name in an attempt to gain support for your cause and let's be honest that's what your doing is it not?

 

[badco]

Why are you not rallying the troops to bring to justice the murderers of everyone that is killed in the UK?

 

[e19896]

On first name terms eh

Quite disgusting though using this mans name in an attempt to gain support for your cause and let's be honest that's what your doing is it not?

http://hamishcampbell.com/2009/04/interview-with-two-eyewitnesses-of-g20.html

 

[Corax]

Did the ambulance actually get stuck at police lines (not according to e1986s link - as the collapse took place outside the cordon)?

 

[agricola]

Yes, that one and a half minute youtube clip that features all of forty-five seconds of ambulance conclusively demonstrates that the delay caused resulted in Tomlinsons death.

edit: indeed, e1986s link actually has two people saying that the ambulances went through police lines - not that they were delayed.

 

[badco]

http://hamishcampbell.com/2009/04/interview-with-two-eyewitnesses-of-g20.html

Why have you edited your original post?

Anyway I was going to ask you why you're taking the moral highground in this particular instance when you seem to hold human life in such low regard as is highlighted in this post

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=8804099&postcount=93

 

[free spirit]

The point I was trying to make is that we arent reading the statements, we are reading (presumably severely) edited highlights of the statements, with the edit made by a third party in a newspaper report who may well have their own take on events / pressures to consider.

ok, but the edited highlights of all 3 witnesses state that he was attacked by a police officer.

Photographer Anna Branthwaite said: "I can remember seeing Ian Tomlinson. He was rushed from behind by a riot officer with a helmet and shield two or three minutes before he collapsed." Branthwaite, an experienced press photographer, has made a statement to the IPCC.

Another independent statement supports allegations of police violence. Amiri Howe, 24, recalled seeing Mr Tomlinson being hit "near the head" with a police baton. Howe took one of a sequence of photographs that show a clearly dazed Mr Tomlinson being helped by a bystander.

A female protester, who does not want to be named but has given her testimony to the IPCC, said she saw a man she later recognised as Tomlinson being pushed aggressively from behind by officers. "I saw a man violently propelled forward, as though he'd been flung by the arm, and fall forward on his head.

"He hit the top front area of his head on the pavement. I noticed his fall particularly because it struck me as a horrifically forceful push by a policeman and an especially hard fall; it made me wince."

As for "recognition after the event", stuff like Crimestoppers and police appeals for witnesses actually has an official ID, usually based on witness albums or other ID procedures, that takes place after the initial ID is made by someone watching Crimewatch / reading the paper etc. Police appeals also rarely contain everything about an incident - but these IDs seem not to have such safeguards.

ok, but at least one of these witnesses also has photographs he took of Tomlinson immediately after the incident, so I can't see how anyone could even think about trying to claim it was mistaken identity.

All the photos that have currently been released, none of which show Tomlinson being assaulted by police. Of these, probably this is the most relevant to the allegations made:

The photo appears to be of Tomlinson outside the Royal Exchange, where the assault is alleged to have happened. Of course it doesnt show Tomlinson being assaulted either, but perhaps it is significant that the person who took it (assuming that the person who took it is the same person whose name is on it) is not one of the three people who have been identified as having provided details to the IPCC? (that said, no doubt they will, if they havent already, be speaking to him shortly).

I'm utterly bemused that you've taken a photo of the guy lying on the floor at the feet of a group of riot police, in the location that the witnesses are saying he had been attacked by riot police and pushed to the floor, as being evidence that he wasn't assaulted

3 independent witnesses, photo's of him on the floor at the feet of a group of riot police... looks pretty clear to me that this attack did happen as stated.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Why are you not rallying the troops to bring to justice the murderers of everyone that is killed in the UK?

Whilst I'm not keen on using this bloke's death as ammunition for any campaign (although it's worth noting that the police were the first to do so in this case, using it to prop up their dubious claims about violence from protestors) it's important that there is pressure on the authorities to find out exactly what happened. Anyone familliar with police 'public order' tactics will see how they can potentially cause serious harm, either from direct assault with batons etc or by detaining people for long periods without food and water or access to medication/medical treatment. If Mr Tomlinson's death was contributed to by the actions of the police then it's vital that this is known, so that those responsible can be held accountable for their actions and more importantly so there can be a serious rethink of how the police behave in these situations.

 

[free spirit]

Why have you edited your original post?

Anyway I was going to ask you why you're taking the moral highground in this particular instance when you seem to hold human life in such low regard as is highlighted in this post

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=8804099&postcount=93

one was a baby that died of natural causes, the other was a man who all the evidence is pointing to having died as a direct result of police actions.

I hope you're not suggesting we should be campaigning to illiminate death entirely? I think that'd be a tad unrealistic a demand even for me and enumbers

 

[SpookyFrank]

Yes, that one and a half minute youtube clip that features all of forty-five seconds of ambulance conclusively demonstrates that the delay caused resulted in Tomlinsons death.

Nobody is saying that. What is clear from that video is that an ambulance was delayed by a police cordon. Death or no death, 45 seconds or 45 minutes, that should be cause for concern.

 

[Corax]

Yes, that one and a half minute youtube clip that features all of forty-five seconds of ambulance conclusively demonstrates that the delay caused resulted in Tomlinsons death.

edit: indeed, e1986s link actually has two people saying that the ambulances went through police lines - not that they were delayed.

I'm not saying it was a particularly significant delay (although who knows; I don't), but it certainly refutes the original (police?) stories that it had been held up by protesters, that accompanied the original tales of heroic blue derring-do in rescuing the poor man from the crowd amid a hail of missiles.

Those other bits were lies, weren't they?

 

[agricola]

I'm utterly bemused that you've taken a photo of the guy lying on the floor at the feet of a group of riot police, in the location that the witnesses are saying he had been attacked by riot police and pushed to the floor, as being evidence that he wasn't assaulted

3 independent witnesses, photo's of him on the floor at the feet of a group of riot police... looks pretty clear to me that this attack did happen as stated.

The point I was making is that that is the only picture in the public domain of him at the location he was alleged to have been assaulted at, and yet the person who took it is, seemingly, not one of the people known to have reported an assault by police to the IPCC, nor has he made any allegations in the media (though he has given them the picture).

Moreover, it doesnt necessarily support the allegations as made as you appear to believe - all it shows is a man on the floor at the location with police officers approaching him (and they arent all riot police - notice the (possibly dog) cop on the right who appears to have his hands in his pockets and a flat cap on).

 

[Garcia Lorca]

The point I was making is that that is the only - notice the (possibly dog) cop on the right who appears to have his hands in his pockets and a flat cap on).

note the one to the left of him with his truncheon at the ready.

 

[agricola]

I'm not saying it was a particularly significant delay (although who knows; I don't), but it certainly refutes the original (police?) stories that it had been held up by protesters, that accompanied the original tales of heroic blue derring-do in rescuing the poor man from the crowd amid a hail of missiles.

Those other bits were lies, weren't they?

But who said the ambulance was delayed by protestors? As for the missiles, even the link provided by e19896 says that bottles were thrown towards police, however brief. Its not as if they made up the bottles being thrown.

 

[Corax]

note the one to the left of him with his truncheon at the ready.

And the two in the middle with their's held braced against their legs.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I'm not saying it was a particularly significant delay (although who knows; I don't), but it certainly refutes the original (police?) stories that it had been held up by protesters, that accompanied the original tales of heroic blue derring-do in rescuing the poor man from the crowd amid a hail of missiles.

Those other bits were lies, weren't they?

I think the police/government practice of using pre-emptive PR of this type is part of the problem. In the minds of much of the general public to this day, I'm fairly sure, the unfortunate Mr Menezes was 'wearing a bulky jacket, trailing wires and acting suspiciously' just like the Hillsborough fans were 'picking the pockets of the dead and pissing on them' and whenever they remember this incident, they'll think first of the increasingly dodgy looking 'hail of bottles' story, and possibly as the BBC briefly asserted based on 'police sources' that the unfortunate Mr Tomlinson was actually killed by this more or less imaginary hail of bottles.

 

[Corax]

But who said the ambulance was delayed by protestors? As for the missiles, even the link provided by e19896 says that bottles were thrown towards police, however brief. Its not as if they made up the bottles being thrown.

"Pelted with" was the chosen description I believe. I fail to see how a group of armoured men can be "pelted with" two plastic bottles, which missed; as according to numerous eyewitnesses.

So it was a lie, yes?

And the Indiana Jones moment, the heroic rescue?

 

[agricola]

note the one to the left of him with his truncheon at the ready.

yes, but its hardly a line of riot police surging against a crowd, is it?

 

[OneStrike]

Just to add my own..

It is impossible that the police don't have footage of I T's time caught up in the protest, every spot appeared to have been filmed, there were police videoing events from every conceivable vantage point, not to mention the massive amount of CCTV footage. If the man that died was in a flashpoint of any kind it will be on camera (presumably that was one of the points of Kettling us all in). Hopefully some of my European cousins will have some footage but don't realise the significance yet (there were film crews/photographers from all over the place).

I am personally concerned by this story as my diabetic brother was supposed to come with me to the protest. Like myself he was naive to the police tactic of mass detention and i dread to think what could have happened to him if he was in the situation i found myself in, he carries a chocolate bar with him at all times but several hours would have really endangered him.

 

[agricola]

"Pelted with" was the chosen description I believe. I fail to see how a group of armoured men can be "pelted with" two plastic bottles, which missed; as according to numerous eyewitnesses.

So it was a lie, yes?

And the Indiana Jones moment, the heroic rescue?

i) who said anything about "heroic rescues"?
ii) were bottles thrown towards police or not?

 

[Garcia Lorca]

yes, but its hardly a line of riot police surging against a crowd, is it?

not in this shot, but that was the general order of the day as the evidence shows.

Plenty of evidence and witnesses around.

The police have over stepped the mark, this time its not just "treehuggers", "unwashed" and "anticapitalists" that have noticed it.

 

[free spirit]

Nobody is saying that. What is clear from that video is that an ambulance was delayed by a police cordon. Death or no death, 45 seconds or 45 minutes, that should be cause for concern.

I'd not say caused, but I would say potentially contributed.

Decreasing ambulance response time from 15 minutes to 5 minutes doubles a heart attack victims chances of survival, therefore any delay decreases survival chances.

Had one of the coppers taken the phone and spoken to the ambulance dispatcher then they could have allerted the police at the police lines to expect an ambulance to come through, and prepare to let it through immediately, or even given them a route to the victim that avoided going through police lines if (as the IPCC statement indicates) it wasn't a full kettle, and there were clear routes through to the location.

The police involved obviously had far more important things to do than speak to the ambulance dispatcher when asked... arrogant, ignorant, incompetent pricks

 

[Bernie Gunther]

As I recall the original reports had either the police unable to reach him due to the 'hail of bottles' or having to move him more or less immediately for the same reason, depending on news source.

By next day the BBC was reporting police sources claiming that the bottles had actually felled him, but fairly quickly stopped saying that and if I look at the page in question here the claim that 'Police said the man, thought to be in his 40s, died on Wednesday evening after bottles were thrown at him and he collapsed. ' seems to have vanished, although a quick check for that string should confirm that other people on urban saw it and complained to the Beeb about it.

By the time the BBC were claiming that, the Guardian (mostly) had talked to eye-witnesses who told a very different story, 1 maybe 2 bottles, plastic bottles rather than glass and no suggestion that the police were either impeded or forced to flee by a 'hail' of them. The day after that witnesses started coming forward saying that they'd seen the police assaulting him prior to his collapse.

Now, if it were not the police under suspicion, wouldn't you think it at least interesting that someone who was subsequently identified by witnesses as potentially responsible for a suspicious death, prior to those witnesses coming forward had already started telling a whole bunch of local gossips and sympathetic friends a load of self-serving lies painting themselves in a favourable light in connection with that suspicious death and suggesting that others present were behaving violently and irresponsibly to that persons detriment?

 

[Corax]

i) who said anything about "heroic rescues"?

That was the tone of the Press. The Press are managed. That's not a conspiracy theory, it's just sensible.

ii) were bottles thrown towards police or not?

Don't be fucking ridiculous. What kind of question is that? I've already stated precisely what was thrown, and with what result. You want less detail?

 

[agricola]

Don't be fucking ridiculous. What kind of question is that? I've already stated precisely what was thrown, and with what result. You want less detail?

Sorry, your "The police LIED when they said bottles were thrown. Only some bottles were thrown" stance is confusing.

 

[free spirit]

The point I was making is that that is the only picture in the public domain of him at the location he was alleged to have been assaulted at, and yet the person who took it is, seemingly, not one of the people known to have reported an assault by police to the IPCC, nor has he made any allegations in the media (though he has given them the picture).

Moreover, it doesnt necessarily support the allegations as made as you appear to believe - all it shows is a man on the floor at the location with police officers approaching him (and they arent all riot police - notice the (possibly dog) cop on the right who appears to have his hands in his pockets and a flat cap on).

1 - one of the witnesses isn't named in the guardian piece, so the photographer could potentially be that witness.

2 - There are already 3 witnesses to this incident, so whether this photographer witnessed it or had their back to the actual incident and only saw the man on the floor is pretty irrelevant really.

3 - lots of the witness statements mention police with dogs being used in the vicinity, and that looks very like a lead in his left hand attached to a dog that's just visible at the edge of the picture.

I really think you ought to stop clutching at straws tbh

 

[Corax]

Sorry, your "The police LIED when they said bottles were thrown. Only some bottles were thrown" stance is confusing.

Do you not see the difference between what actually happened and being "pelted with bottles", with the implicit suggestion that it impeded efforts? Must it just be 'yes' or 'no' to you, is it that simple? Is your world so black and white?

Oh, wait... Evenin' Officer.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Sorry, your "The police LIED when they said bottles were thrown. Only some bottles were thrown" stance is confusing.

The issue is not that the police lied in the strictest possible sense of that word (well unless they really did tell the BBC untruthfully that a thrown bottle felled Mr Tomlinson)

The issue is that they have a history of putting what one might call, if one were giving them maximum benefit of the doubt, seriously misleading and obviously self-serving pre-emptive PR into the press whenever they're involved in some poor sod getting killed. For example Mr Menezes' 'bulky jacket' and 'suspicious behaviour'.

In this case, the 1-2 bottles witnesses report, became a 'hail' and they sort of forgot to mention that they were plastic rather than glass as one might assume from the context of stories claiming that they were 'driven back' by this 'hail'