G20: Getting to the truth- the death of Ian Tomlinson RIP

[tangentlama]

And the final problem with kettles: people get hurt. We still have to see whether the police did play a role in Ian Tomlinson's death, but how can they expect to wade into crowds (of mainly peaceful protesters and bystanders, let's not forget) with batons, or dogs, and not cause injury? Another little discussed tactic of a kettle is to squeeze protesters into an increasingly small space, until there's no room to move or - sometimes - breathe. It's a miracle nobody's ever got seriously hurt at one of these things.

 

[Barking_Mad]

BBC article usual shite

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7986192.stm

 

[badco]

Just after 19:00 BST Mr Tomlinson is seen on CCTV walking up King William Street and approaching a police cordon opposite the Bank of England. It is thought the 47-year-old wanted to get through and continue his walk home from work, however, police refused to let him do so.

http://www.inthenews.co.uk/news/health/crime/death-at-g20-police-silent-on-assault-reports-$1285968.htm

IN WORDS THEY KILLED HIM:​

How is anybody to blame for a person having a heart attack?​

 

[agricola]

No. But probably true nonetheless.

Yes, after all its not as if overweight working-class men over 45 are at risk of having heart attacks.

 

[free spirit]

How is anybody to blame for a person having a heart attack?

erm, you don't think that maybe getting pushed to the ground and beaten up by the police in an unprovoked attack a matter of minutes before having a heart attack could have had anything to do with the heart attack itself?

also if it actually was a heart attack then the fact that the witness who's friend was originally giving him first aid has reported that the police 'medics' who arrived at the scene were not administering CPR also looks pretty sus. Either it was a heart attack and they should have been giving CPR, or it was the head injury from being attacked that caused the collapse, and the heart attack happened later, presumably as a direct result of the head injury... either way the police at the very least contributed to his death.

 

[free spirit]

Yes, after all its not as if overweight working-class men over 45 are at risk of having heart attacks.

minutes after being attacked by the police... coincidence my arse

 

[badco]

erm, you don't think that maybe getting pushed to the ground and beaten up by the police in an unprovoked attack a matter of minutes before having a heart attack could have had anything to do with the heart attack itself?

I don't buy that for one second

 

[agricola]

erm, you don't think that maybe getting pushed to the ground and beaten up by the police in an unprovoked attack a matter of minutes before having a heart attack could have had anything to do with the heart attack itself?

If thats what happened, perhaps. However it remains to be seen if that is what has actually happened.

also if it actually was a heart attack then the fact that the witness who's friend was originally giving him first aid has reported that the police 'medics' who arrived at the scene were not administering CPR also looks pretty sus. Either it was a heart attack and they should have been giving CPR, or it was the head injury from being attacked that caused the collapse, and the heart attack happened later, presumably as a direct result of the head injury... either way the police at the very least contributed to his death.

It would, if only it were true. There is some evidence that the Police medics actually did try and save the blokes life - admittedly the photo below doesnt show them doing CPR (though other photos might) but it does show him placed in the position for them to do CPR and with a tube in ready to go:

 

[badco]

Yes, after all its not as if overweight working-class men over 45 are at risk of having heart attacks.

Especially when faced with been forced against his will to be amongst thousands of screaming(some violent) protestors because they can't be trusted not to cause havoc.

I think my heart would be playing fuck in that situation aswell.

 

[badco]

Oh what a nice picture

 

[badco]

the police 'medics' who arrived at the scene were not administering CPR also looks pretty sus

But to the credit of the protestors they threw bottles.......oh wait that's not good is it

 

[agricola]

But to the credit of the protestors they threw bottles.......oh wait that's not good is it

You are not being particularly helpful to the thread, by the way.

 

[free spirit]

I don't buy that for one second

which bit?

the bit about him being attacked by the police minutes before he collapsed, as wtinessed by 3 people so far....

All three said they saw him at Royal Exchange Buildings, a pedestrian area 200ft from where he eventually fell. They variously described seeing him being pushed and thrown to the floor by an officer, struck with a police baton and hitting his head against the pavement.

The witnesses - Anna Branthwaite, 36, a freelance photographer from south London, Kezia Rolfe, 27, a researcher from Stoke Newington, north London, and Amiri Howe, 24, an actor from west London - all said the incident took place moments after violent clashes between police and protesters.

[guardian]
CCTV cameras also put him in the exact location and time that these 3 witnesses say they saw him being assaulted.

or do you mean about the assault contributing to the heart attack?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

You are not being particularly helpful to the thread, by the way.

The Sun printed it, so it must be true right?

 

[Matt S]

I know one of the eyewitnesses, and trust her absolutely and implicitly. If she said he was pushed violently by the police and struck his head, that's what happened.

Matt

 

[free spirit]

But to the credit of the protestors they threw bottles.......oh wait that's not good is it

one or 2 plastic bottles thrown at the police because they were mistaken for being a police snatch squad, with the bottle throwers immediately told to stop by other protestors because they were medics.

as stated by multiple witnesses.

don't let the facts get in the way of you spouting bullshit though eh

 

[badco]

which bit?

the bit about him being attacked by the police minutes before he collapsed, as wtinessed by 3 people so far....[guardian]
CCTV cameras also put him in the exact location and time that these 3 witnesses say they saw him being assaulted.

or do you mean about the assault contributing to the heart attack?

But i'm a bit confused as witness reports also say he was not assualted.I think you are maybe a tad biased?

I prefer to believe the stress of the whole situation MAY have caused his heart attack!

LOL I notice you chose not to quote that post

 

[Garcia Lorca]

I prefer to believe the stress of the whole situation MAY have caused his heart attack!

unbelievable.

 

[agricola]

the bit about him being attacked by the police minutes before he collapsed, as wtinessed by 3 people so far....

It is worth noting that the three accounts given are, in the fragments that have been published in the press, not entirely supportive of each other. Its also worth noting that, again based on press reports thus far, it is only 3 people have come forward to say that they saw him being assaulted (and that those identifications were based on recognition after the event). There are also quite a few photos in the public domain of Tomlinson which do not support the allegations made, though of course no doubt every person who took photos of the entire day is no doubt going through their photos as I write this.

I do think there should be a full IPCC investigation and full inquest into this btw.

 

[badco]

which bit?

the bit about him being attacked by the police minutes before he collapsed, as wtinessed by 3 people so far....[guardian]
CCTV cameras also put him in the exact location and time that these 3 witnesses say they saw him being assaulted.

or do you mean about the assault contributing to the heart attack?

And the freelance photographer who witnessed this happening was too gob smacked to take pictures then?They managed to get pictures of him as he lay dying but not of him being assualted?

Sorry,I don't believe

 

[lopsidedbunny]

How is anybody to blame for a person having a heart attack?

A blow to his back by a riot shield will soon take a wind of you that's for sure and it would certainly won't do much good to the heart.

 

[e19896]

8:58pm UK, Monday April 06, 2009
A man who collapsed and died from a heart attack during the G20 London protests was pushed back by police minutes earlier, witnesses have told independent investigators.

Police and protesters at G20 demonstrations in London

G20 demonstrations in London last week

Ian Tomlinson, 47, was blocked from passing through a police cordon as he attempted to walk home from work at a newsagent, the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) said.

He was caught on several CCTV cameras walking up King William Street where he was confronted by uniformed officers shortly before 7.30pm last Wednesday.

A short time later, he walked into Royal Exchange Passage where witnesses said he was caught up in a crowd and pushed back by more police officers in the City of London.

Mr Tomlinson then walked on to Cornhill where he collapsed and was helped by bystanders and police medics before being carried away on a stretcher.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Ian-Tomlinson-Who-Died-From-Heart-Attack-In-G20-London-Protests-Was-Pushed-Back-By-Police-Earlier/Article/200904115256879

 

[free spirit]

If thats what happened, perhaps. However it remains to be seen if that is what has actually happened.



It would, if only it were true. There is some evidence that the Police medics actually did try and save the blokes life - admittedly the photo below doesnt show them doing CPR (though other photos might) but it does show him placed in the position for them to do CPR and with a tube in ready to go:

ah, a higher res version of that picture.

I don't doubt the police medics would have performed cpr at some point, but how long did it take them to start it, and would it not maybe have helped if they had maybe spoken with the original first aider who'd been treating him to find out what his condition was / what treatment she'd been administering etc.

you know, like proper medics and first aiders would do.

also, one of the 6 of them talking to the ambulance dispatcher might have been a good idea as well... maybe they could have helped to prevent the ambluance getting stuck at police lines had they not been such ignorant pricks about it.

Another demonstrator had already called 999 and was getting medical advice from the ambulance dispatcher. "Four police with two police medics came. They told her [the first aider] to 'move along'.", said Peter Apps. "Then they pushed her forcibly away from him. They refused to listen to her [the first aider] when she tried to explain his condition."

The first aider, who did not wish to be named, said "The police surrounded the collapsed man. I was standing with the person who'd called 999. The ambulance dispatcher wanted to talk to the police, the phone was being held out to them, but the police refused."

Another witness, Elias Stoakes, added "we didn't see them [the police] perform CPR."

tbf though, none of my many many professional, protest and free party related dealings with the police would have led me to expect anything better from the police.

 

[winjer]

Especially when faced with been forced against his will to be amongst thousands

Only flawed by him being outside the cordon.

 

[free spirit]

And the freelance photographer who witnessed this happening was too gob smacked to take pictures then?They managed to get pictures of him as he lay dying but not of him being assualted?

Sorry,I don't believe

maybe they were also legging it from the police at the time and therefore were in no position to take photographs. Or do you think photographers have some magic invisible forcefield that protects them from police batons so they can continue to take pictures undisturbed?

bear in mind also that there'd have been people getting pushed over and smacked round the head all over the street, so it's not that surprising that nobody got a picture of this particular assault.

 

[winjer]

Yes, after all its not as if overweight working-class men over 45 are at risk of having heart attacks.

I see you're still keeping an open mind about it, and not at all pushing the company line.

 

[agricola]

ah, a higher res version of that picture.

I don't doubt the police medics would have performed cpr at some point, but how long did it take them to start it, and would it not maybe have helped if they had maybe spoken with the original first aider who'd been treating him to find out what his condition was / what treatment she'd been administering etc.

you know, like proper medics and first aiders would do.

They may have done that. Look, the story as reported by yourself has gone from "they didnt do CPR" to "they may have done CPR but it was too late" when faced with actual evidence of them doing CPR-like activites. One also notes that your reports do not mention the first aiders who were "pushed away" by police doing CPR either - which either suggests they didnt know how to do it (*if it was required, one imagines the LAS dispatcher would have told them how), or it wasnt needed at the time (either because he was still breathing / still had a pulse).

also, one of the 6 of them talking to the ambulance dispatcher might have been a good idea as well... maybe they could have helped to prevent the ambluance getting stuck at police lines had they not been such ignorant pricks about it.

Did the ambulance actually get stuck at police lines (not according to e1986s link - as the collapse took place outside the cordon)? Also, why did they need to speak to the LAS dispatcher? Police dont do this normally, as we have a direct computer (via the CAD system) and phone link to the LAS and would have made sure that an ambulance had been called with the info of what was wrong with Tomlinson - and the officers sent were trained and equipped medics. Its entirely possible that the officers have more paramedic training and experience than the dispatcher did, and thats even if that part of the incident happened.

tbf though, none of my many many professional, protest and free party related dealings with the police would have led me to expect anything better from the police.

Which of course will not have affected how you view this in the slightest.

 

[agricola]

I see you're still keeping an open mind about it, and not at all pushing the company line.

Sorry, is that not true then? Cops murdered him then, clearly.

 

[free spirit]

It is worth noting that the three accounts given are, in the fragments that have been published in the press, not entirely supportive of each other. Its also worth noting that, again based on press reports thus far, it is only 3 people have come forward to say that they saw him being assaulted (and that those identifications were based on recognition after the event).

actually, the fact the statements don't match precisely makes it much more likely that they are true IMO.

it indicates clearly that these are 3 witnesses truthfully recounting what they witnessed, as opposed to 3 witnesses who've sat together to discuss it first and make sure they got their stories straight.

ie these are not coppers who decide collectively what the story is going to be, to make sure that their stories all match perfectly and corroborate each other despite being utter bullshit.

also - recognition after the event? you mean like every conviction that's ever been based on witnesses coming forward after seeing crime stoppers, or a police appeal for witnesses?

There are also quite a few photos in the public domain of Tomlinson which do not support the allegations made, though of course no doubt every person who took photos of the entire day is no doubt going through their photos as I write this.

which photos would these be?

I do think there should be a full IPCC investigation and full inquest into this btw.

good. fwiw, I get the feeling you're one of the better coppers around. I'm not ACAB at all, I've spent entire weekend sat in event control rooms with some fairly decent coppers (though in fairness they've also proven to be pretty fucking useless when it came to dealing with an emergency and almost cause someone to die by sending the ambulance to the wrong entrance... but I digress). I've also seen exactly how the met operate in these kind of situations, and in my personal and professional opinion, this has been on the cards for a long time.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Yes, after all its not as if overweight working-class men over 45 are at risk of having heart attacks.

Equally though, it's not as if the cops weren't hitting and knocking over plenty of other people in that vicinity at that time.