G20: Getting to the truth- the death of Ian Tomlinson RIP

[e19896]

not sure, but this was the reason I'd started a seperate thread specifically for people to post up relevant pictures, witness statements, videos etc.

ie, so that people wouldn't have to trawl through 28 pages of a discussion thread to try and find links to the info they wanted to find.

does anyone else think that would be useful still, and if so would the editor consider either starting a new thread, or reopening the closed one (or would I, or someone else be ok to start a new one?)

A blog at word press with open comments, could be a means for this easy to admin and use..

 

[Callie]

not sure, but this was the reason I'd started a seperate thread specifically for people to post up relevant pictures, witness statements, videos etc.

ie, so that people wouldn't have to trawl through 28 pages of a discussion thread to try and find links to the info they wanted to find.

does anyone else think that would be useful still, and if so would the editor consider either starting a new thread, or reopening the closed one (or would I, or someone else be ok to start a new one?)

I think it would be useful for the sake of reference

- and for people to clearly label links to youtube not like I did earlier- eg give the title and a description of what is shown.

 

[_pH_]

I think it would be useful for the sake of reference

- and for people to clearly label links to youtube not like I did earlier- eg give the title and a description of what is shown.

there is about a bajillion clips of G20 on youtube though, tbf. the relevant ones are bound to get posted more than once

 

[two sheds]

The IPCC have got a point though with the above "”it might jeapordise our enquiry’ http://ianbone.wordpress.com/". You wouldn't want evidence jeopardising an enquiry.

 

[winjer]

Does anyone have a better than youtube quality version of the Channel 4/ITN clip?

 

[e19896]

After working with families bereaved after deaths following police contact for 30 years, it comes as no surprise that the initial reports of the death of Ian Tomlinson were at best partial and at worst an attempt to deflect attention from the involvement and potential wrongdoing of police officers.

It was also unsurprising that the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) failed to grasp the significance of the context of his death and immediately initiate a robust and independent investigation. This failure of judgement is extraordinary given the widespread concerns both about the death, and criticisms of their investigation following the death of Jean Charles de Menezes.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/apr/09/g20-police-assault-ian-tomlinson-g20

 

[_pH_]

Lest we forget who the police were there to protect

Stuart Fraser, Chairman of Policy of the City of London Corporation, said police had successfully managed the difficult balancing act of ensuring demonstrators were able to protest peacefully and safely while protecting property and keeping the Square Mile open for business.

A Head of Corporate Security at a leading bank added:
"I am no expert but having seen some minor agro in Northern Ireland and conducted public order in Iraq I have an insight into the challenges officers must have faced"

"Everything I saw this week was testament to a disciplined, restrained and professional force."

rofl.

 

[Wilf]

In terms of the basics of the case, the stuff from the Sun doesn't change anything. He was attacked by police - twice - and that caused his death. However we probably do have to alter the narrative - it looks like he was around at 6.00ish and not simply on his way home from 7.00 onwards - and he did have some kind of 'contact' with police over the van.

Really doesn't change anything - and you can't draw from this that he was active in the demo - and more importantly, even that wouldn't be anywhere near an excuse for what happened (obviously).

What is most despicable in the Sun story is this quote:

IT worker Ross Hardy, who took the new pictures, said: “I’d been watching some of the protests and saw this older guy standing in the road.

“Cops were there already but a police riot van was trying to make its way up the road towards the Bank of England.

“Tomlinson stood out because of his football shirt and seemed in his own little world. It was weird. The van approached and a cop leaned out to shout at him to get out of the way.


Mumbled

“But he didn’t go anywhere. He just mumbled something and raised his arm a bit unsteadily. It was then it became obvious he was drunk because he wasn’t really coherent and couldn’t move well.”

Mr Hardy, 24, added: “The officer yelled at him again and when he didn’t move the riot van moved slowly up against him.

“It just nudged him gently but Tomlinson still didn’t get out of the way. They tried nudging him again. When that didn’t work four riot police moved in and dragged him on to the pavement. The van moved past but Tomlinson stuck around for at least another half an hour. He certainly wasn’t on his way home. He had no intention of going anywhere.”

The words from Hardy have all the hallmarks of being responses to prompts - 'we know he was an alcoholic - did he seem drunk to you?", "did it look to you like he was on his way home?". Yep, were in the process of seeing history being remade.

 

[_pH_]

PC Mark Cockram, who was operating at Bank Junction on April 1st said:
"I found most of the protestors absolutely fine and did not see any serious altercations.

not toeing the company line there, PC Cockram

 

[ViolentPanda]

well they won't be able to trot out the 'on benefits' shit- it's known he worked on a newstand.

If he was working an official pitch, chances are high he was a taxpayer too.

 

[shaman75]

^This. There's no reason to move him in that situation, except for the fact that the plod wouldn't have wanted to break their cordon to let an ambulance through.

Yes. But they moved him inside their lines.

And later their lines were obstructing the ambulance reaching him.

 

[ymu]

That para you posted is from the Sun?

Surely dubious?

And directly contradicted by Barry Smith's statement to the Times.

It's very contradictory. We know he was sober when he left work at 18:00, but he doesn't look at all compos mentis at 19:25. Even if he went to the pub, an alcoholic wouldn't even get tipsy in that time. The pub scenario is unlikely as he was in contact with the police from 18:07 onwards.

It's looking increasingly like he died due to head injuries - concussion or brain haemorrhage are consistent with his staggering about and the dopey giggly behaviour as he was dying. If he was having a heart attack he'd most likely appear panicked rather than stoned.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm just glad that there's a plethora of video and photographic evidence for this incident, or we'd have been looking at another Blair Peach situation, with the Met omerta going to work, and nobody ever paying for the death.

 

[_pH_]

It's very contradictory. We know he was sober when he left work at 18:00, but he doesn't look at all compos mentis at 19:25. An alcoholic wouldn't even get tipsy in that time.

It's looking increasingly like he died due to head injuries - concussion or brain haemorrhage are consistent with his staggering about and the dopey giggly behaviour as he was dying. If he was having a heart attack he'd most likely appear panicked rather than stoned.

i thought that too http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=8977820&postcount=841

do we know he was sober when he left work? I know his mate says so, but the Sun story casts doubt on that

 

[Wilf]

i thought that too http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=8977820&postcount=841

do we know he was sober when he left work? I know his mate says so, but the Sun story casts doubt on that

You would imagine the first post morten would have checked for alcohol - and if they had found anything, we would have had it leaked by now. To be honest though, its irrelevant - except that him being drunk and/or already unsteady will be woven into the police account [if of course he was drunk]

 

[ymu]

i thought that too http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=8977820&postcount=841

do we know he was sober when he left work? I know his mate says so, but the Sun story casts doubt on that

Actually, it's the two apparently contradictory accounts that draw me to that conclusion. He was working all day and got sent home early because they'd sold out by 6pm. Yet he does appear wobbly on his feet in the video footage and according to eye witnesses. Just because they concluded that he was drunk doesn't mean that he was. Hypoglycaemia causes similar problems for people with diabetes - they appear to be drunk so noone helps them.

 

[_pH_]

You would imagine the first post morten would have checked for alcohol - and if they had found anything, we would have had it leaked by now. To be honest though, its irrelevant - except that him being drunk and/or already unsteady will be woven into the police account [if of course he was drunk]

yep fair point on both

 

[Fruitloop]

Actually, it's the two apparently contradictory accounts that draw me to that conclusion. He was working all day and got sent home early because they'd sold out by 6pm. Yet he does appear wobbly on his feet in the video footage and according to eye witnesses. Just because they concluded that he was drunk doesn't mean that he was. Hypoglycaemia causes similar problems for people with diabetes - they appear to be drunk so noone helps them.

He could have already been smacked in the head.

 

[free spirit]

i thought that too http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=8977820&postcount=841

do we know he was sober when he left work? I know his mate says so, but the Sun story casts doubt on that

1 - it's the Sun, so it is incapable of casting doubt on anything ever.

2 - Someone who's concussed could well appear to be drunk, as could someone who's suffering a stroke...

stroke symptoms

• numbness, weakness or paralysis on one side of the body (signs of this may be a drooping arm, leg or lower eyelid, or a dribbling mouth)
• slurred speech or difficulty finding words or understanding speech
• sudden blurred vision or loss of sight
• confusion or unsteadiness
• a severe headache.

concussion symptoms

• Headaches, which may be severe and persistent
• Dizziness
• Nausea
• Vision disturbance
• Poor balance
• Confusion

eta - + hypoglycemea as ymu says.

 

[_pH_]

Actually, it's the two apparently contradictory accounts that draw me to that conclusion. He was working all day and got sent home early because they'd sold out by 6pm. Yet he does appear wobbly on his feet in the video footage and according to eye witnesses. Just because they concluded that he was drunk doesn't mean that he was. Hypoglycaemia causes similar problems for people with diabetes - they appear to be drunk so noone helps them.

He is wobbly in the footage, that's what made me think of head injury. BUT since then the Sun has published that other witness statement that seems to suggest he was pissed at just gone 6pm, which was well before he got smacked on the head with the baton.

Blood alcohol level at post mortem is the only way we'll know for sure - if a 2nd post mortem were to be carried out now, would his blood alcohol level still be measurable, anyone?

 

[TopCat]

Well it may come as no surprise to you all to know that many Millwall supporters are livid at the death on one of our own. There is much chatter about revenge.

 

[Iguana]

Blood alcohol level at post mortem is the only way we'll know for sure - if a 2nd post mortem were to be carried out now, would his blood alcohol level still be measurable, anyone?

Surely that would have been discovered in the first post mortem and would have been publicised by now?

 

[ymu]

You would imagine the first post morten would have checked for alcohol - and if they had found anything, we would have had it leaked by now. To be honest though, its irrelevant - except that him being drunk and/or already unsteady will be woven into the police account [if of course he was drunk]

The problem for the police is that there is absolutely no justification for the attack. No conceivable way to defend it. Being homeless, being drunk, being a protester, not being a protester - none of these things are cause for being beaten up by police.

In some senses, it doesn't really matter what the cause of death was. It is the reason the video made the news, that's all. There are countless similar clips around, countless similar incidents that day and from many other protests. Middle England is shocked by the images, those who go on protests are not.

And here's the thing. There are many many Daily Mail types who are genuinely horrified by these images and who are now being exposed to similar video of attacks on people who didn't happen to die. Attempts to smear the man on grounds that could never ever justify the attack will only drive a bigger wedge between these people and the nastier elements of the right. They'll dig their own grave. Which is nice.

 

[Wilf]

Talking about the first post mortem, didn't it say something like 'there were no bruises or scratches' [when discussing what might have contributed to the heat attack]? What the fuck does that say about the competence/impartiality of that post mortem? His face and head were clearly bruised in the recent images seen on this thread.

 

[ymu]

He could have already been smacked in the head.

That's what I'm saying - the wobbliness appears to be due to head injuries rather than alcohol, hence it may not have been a heart attack that killed him.

 

[shaman75]

I wonder how they know he was there at 6pm. Camera time stamp perhaps?

I'm not saying he wasn't there then, but it occurs to me that the clocks went forward on the sunday and not everyone would have adjusted their camera time settings.

 

[_pH_]

Surely that would have been discovered in the first post mortem and would have been publicised by now?

dunno, but then the 1st post mortem found no bruises, and apparently the coroner was refusing to answer questions, so who knows??

 

[free spirit]

He is wobbly in the footage, that's what made me think of head injury. BUT since then the Sun has published that other witness statement that seems to suggest he was pissed at just gone 6pm, which was well before he got smacked on the head with the baton.

Blood alcohol level at post mortem is the only way we'll know for sure - if a 2nd post mortem were to be carried out now, would his blood alcohol level still be measurable, anyone?

I'd presume so because his bodies not going to be processing the alcohol to remove it from the bloodstream since he died. They will have taken blood alcohol readings at the first autopsy though, so we can presume he wasn't drunk or they'd have released them straight away.

 

[Struwwelpeter]

The words from Hardy have all the hallmarks of being responses to prompts.

The IPCC have got a point though with the above "”it might jeapordise our enquiry’ http://ianbone.wordpress.com/". You wouldn't want evidence jeopardising an enquiry.

This is a tricky one for any (impartial) investigating organisation: You don't want to put ideas in a witness's memory by letting the witness see any film or by asking them leading questions. Yet, without the photos of Ian Tomlinson, the video footage and witnesses would not have come forward. An impartial investigator would have appealed for witnesses, video and photos and released selected pictures to jog people's memories. Some photos were released, but the initial enquiry was already being wound up as witnesses were coming forward. So, the investigation was effectively delegated to the media (including this site). The result is that the evidence will be spun in different directions and witness evidence will be contaminated. Fortunately, what was "reported" in the Sun is irrelevant to the crime being investigated.

 

[free spirit]

I wonder how they know he was there at 6pm. Camera time stamp perhaps?

I'm not saying he wasn't there then, but it occurs to me that the clocks went forward on the sunday and not everyone would have adjusted their camera time settings.

yep, the suns timeline is wrong anyway as it gives the time of collapse as 7.32, whereas the first call to the ambulance service was 7.24, which is likely to be more accurate than time stamps from cameras IMO.