G20: Getting to the truth- the death of Ian Tomlinson RIP

[Fruitloop]

You think that horrible bastard has got a PhD?

I dread to think. What does 'medic' actually mean in that context?

 

[winjer]

The only violence I can see in that YouTube clip is from the police.

Watching it again, it looks like a snatch squad out of their depth, c.f. the two guys not having shields, one appears to be Tomlinson's assailant - tucked in jacket, no shield, the other is a CoL all in black, probably the same one seen in the well-known videos.

 

[William of Walworth]

BTW - attack cop who has now come forward has not been suspended. Why is this violent thug allowed to continue walking our streets?

Source on this one please KT?

I found it quickly on the beeb news site.

Do you mean this DC?

Doesn't seem to say specifically that he wasn't suspended, only implied by omission.

But fair dos if there's more detail elsewhere ...

 

[GoneCoastal]

That para you posted is from the Sun?

Surely dubious?

And directly contradicted by Barry Smith's statement to the Times.

I realise that the main thing that they would have been looking for in a Post Mortem examination would be immediate causes of death but I certainly hope tests for alcohol levels would have been performed as part of it.

e2a: Well, I hope anyway .........

 

[William of Walworth]

I realise that the main thing that they would have been looking for in a Post Mortem examination would be immediate causes of death but I certainly hope tests for alcohol levels would have been performed as part of it

Fair enough, but the Sun (and its sources?) are trying to spin it whatever.

 

[_pH_]

Do you mean this DC?

Doesn't seem to say specifically that he wasn't suspended, only implied by omission.

But fair dos if there's more detail elsewhere ...

A Metropolitan Police spokesman said no officers had been suspended.

from that beeb story

 

[winjer]

I dread to think. What does 'medic' actually mean in that context?

A cop who's done a five day training course, or 1-day conversion from First Aid at Work.

 

[TopCat]

More smears here, guess where printed?

Mr Tomlinson was staying at a hostel in Smithfield and had recently come out of rehab for a drinking habit. He was estranged from his wife Julia because of his drink problem.

The photographs show him in a Millwall shirt smoking a cigarette in Lombard Street at 6.07pm, one hour and 25 minutes before he collapsed.

 

[free spirit]

I've only got basic first aid training but I'm very surprised that 6 minutes would be enough to declare someone dead. I've always been taught that if you are tending someone who's not breathing or heart has stopped you don't stop giving CPR until help arrives. Even a doctor in that situation should keep giving CPR until someone with better equipment can take over.

Once the ambulance arrived I assume Tomlinson was defibrillated before being declared dead? 6 minutes between the ambulance being called while he's still conscious, him stopping breathing and CPR being administered until the ambulance arrived, the paramedics arriving and attempting treatment before stating he is dead seems very fast to me. I could be completely wrong, and I only have very, very basic training, so perhaps that is normal.

I think you may have misunderstood the info I posted, or maybe I wrote it badly...

6 minutes elapse between the time of the initial call to the ambulance service from a member of the public (7.24pm), in which the ambulance service state that they were told he was breathing still, and other witnesses have stated that he had a weak pulse.... to the ambulance service reporting that they were contacted by the police to say that he had stopped breathing (7.30pm).

I can't find a confirmed arrival time for the ambulance, but have seen various witness statements that put it at between 15-20 minutes from the initial collapse... can anyone find the arrival time for the ambulance, or time they declared him dead?

Either way I doubt there was anyone immediately available within the police who were there who was more qualified than a 3rd year medical student. I hope stopping her from continuing to attend him until the paramedics or a doctor arrived will be seen as criminal.

just part of the blanket police attitude that they always know best, and nobody not in uniform could ever possibly have anything worthwhile to contribute to the safe resolution of any issue ever IME.

 

[winjer]

Is that not a City of London Inspector rather than Chief Superintendent? I can only see two pips on his epaulettes.

No. It's a crown and a pip, notice also he has gold braid on his hat, and that Inspector doesn't.

Compare:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/marcusbensasson/3406775376/in/datetaken
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28835541@N05/3412110561/

Would this be the memorial event on the Thursday held for Ian Tomlinson?

Yes. Robertson was in charge there, I spoke to him.

 

[GoneCoastal]

Fair enough, but the Sun (and its sources?) are trying to spin it whatever.

Totally agreed with you there! I just hope some sort of balance will come from any PM results

 

[danny la rouge]

They have started already...

A DRIP DRIP of smears and lies and bullshit.

He is now a "homeless alcoholic".

We should play fuckwit bingo, see how many smears the papers will publish today, anyone checked the Standard yet?

Has this been posted yet?

WE don't yet know how drifter and alcoholic Ian Tomlinson provoked a policeman to attack him minutes before he collapsed and died of heart failure.

We may guess he was uncooperative or said something offensive, at a time when police nerves we frayed by the G20 riots. (Daily Mail leader column, Thurs, April 9, 2009, p14).

Can you imagine any other assault getting that treatment? "We don't know how binge drinker Moira Jones provoked Karek Harcar to rape and murder her. She should have gone home to the love of a good man". No, I don't think so.

 

[_pH_]

No. It's a crown and a pip, notice also he has gold braid on his hat, and that Inspector doesn't.

Compare:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/marcusbensasson/3406775376/in/datetaken
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28835541@N05/3412110561/


Yes. Robertson was in charge there, I spoke to him.

http://www.cityoflondon.police.uk/CityPolice/About/OurPeople/ManagementBoard/alexrobertson.htm

 

[Kaka Tim]

No. It's a crown and a pip, notice also he has gold braid on his hat, and that Inspector doesn't.

Compare:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/marcusbensasson/3406775376/in/datetaken
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28835541@N05/3412110561/


Yes. Robertson was in charge there, I spoke to him.

Yes - so did I. I asked why the protest (the one the next day - outside the bank) was surrouneded by police - he told me 'look Ive been dealing with this lot for the past two days. They're about to start throwing bottles' (the crowd of a few hundred were sitting down and quiet at this point).

 

[TopCat]

Fucking Daily Mail cunts. They will lie about the booze levels in his blood. I bet they are upset that he lives in a hostel and they can't therefore "find" kiddie porn on his PC.

 

[winjer]

It's not a hostel. "Popular with travellers and backpackers, Lindsey Hotel is a bed and breakfast situated in the City and within easy reach of the West End. There are 48 rooms including non smoking rooms and they serve a full Continental breakfast. There is also a TV lounge."

http://www.tipped.co.uk/listings/11992/lindsey-hotel

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en...cbp=12,58.13350561769789,,0,-20.2364864864865

 

[SpookyFrank]

Seriously calls into question the wisdom of putting the word 'medic' on the back of a badly trained, inexperienced first aider, because other first aid trained people will assume that someone who has the word medic on heir uniform will actually have greater medical knowledge than they do and bow to their judgement as in this case... medics should be medically trained, not just have done a fuckign first aid course - that makes you a first aider, nothing more.

any medically trained people care to comment on this?

You'd like to think that all coppers would be required to do first aid training wouldn't you? If it's true that the police 'medics' only have basic first aid training then they shouldn't call themselves medics, for precisely the reason you say. Protestors and activists often bring proper medics with them, IIRC a medical student was attending to Mr Tomlinson after he collapsed and claims she was removed from the area by the police medics, who didn't even let her tell them what condition Tomlinson was in. Here, once again, it seems intimidation was more important to the police than the life of a member of the public

I've done extensive first aid training, but I still wouldn't call myself a medic. I'm a first aider. A first aider with enough of a background in physiology to know that baton blows to the skull do not constitute effective medical treatment. It's come to something when you can't even trust the police medics ffs

 

[Iguana]

I think you may have misunderstood the info I posted, or maybe I wrote it badly...

6 minutes elapse between the time of the initial call to the ambulance service from a member of the public (7.24pm), in which the ambulance service state that they were told he was breathing still, and other witnesses have stated that he had a weak pulse.... to the ambulance service reporting that they were contacted by the police to say that he had stopped breathing (7.30pm).

Ah, ok. So I assume they continued giving CPR until the paramedics arrived? They still shouldn't have removed the woman who was probably the most medically qualified, I can't see that as being anything other than criminally negligent. Nor should they have moved him under the circumstances described by the witnesses.

 

[lopsidedbunny]

Blue ribbons?

Just read latest family statement here. At the end of the article there is mention of blue ribbons...

Sounds to me like a simple n effective way to register our solidarity with the family and highlight our concerns...

Anyone hear anymore about this?

Would be interesting to see how this develops..
feckin blue tho!
I would wear one for sure.. and would ask peeps to consider promoting such a 'campaign'...

thumbs up

 

[DaveCinzano]

No. It's a crown and a pip, notice also he has gold braid on his hat, and that Inspector doesn't.

Compare:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/marcusbensasson/3406775376/in/datetaken
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28835541@N05/3412110561/


Yes. Robertson was in charge there, I spoke to him.

Aha - cheers

 

[SpookyFrank]

Ah, ok. So I assume they continued giving CPR until the paramedics arrived? They still shouldn't have removed the woman who was probably the most medically qualified, I can't see that as being anything other than criminally negligent. Nor should they have moved him under the circumstances described by the witnesses.

^This. There's no reason to move him in that situation, except for the fact that the plod wouldn't have wanted to break their cordon to let an ambulance through. Tomlinson and the police medics were under no danger except from more baton charges leading to another crush of protestors, and you'd like to think that one of the coppers could have used his radio to say to his mates; "someone is on the ground receiving treatment, kindly leave off the random violence for the next five minutes".

 

[William of Walworth]

Do you mean this one DC?

Doesn't seem to say specifically that he wasn't suspended, only implied by omission.

But fair dos if there's more detail elsewhere ...

A Metropolitan Police spokesman said no officers had been suspended.

from that beeb story

Ahhh OK, thanks for that _pH_ ...

 

[William of Walworth]

WE don't yet know how drifter and alcoholic Ian Tomlinson provoked a policeman to attack him minutes before he collapsed and died of heart failure.

We may guess he was uncooperative or said something offensive, at a time when police nerves we frayed by the G20 riots. (Daily Mail leader column, Thurs, April 9, 2009, p14).

Fucking Daily Mail cunts. They will lie about the booze levels in his blood. I bet they are upset that he lives in a hostel and they can't therefore "find" kiddie porn on his PC.

This lying and spin is fucking shit

 

[danny la rouge]

That should read "were frayed" not "we frayed". My typo.

 

[lopsidedbunny]

Just been doing a bit of catch up it was already been mention about Ian Tomlinson "picture" of him being surrounded by cops when he was "hit" the first time... anyone got this "Picture"???

Any joy on this as I need to see it? Then I can add to what I already told "them". Thanks in advance.

 

[ymu]

The thug responsible is unlikely to have known that the dead man was (one of) the guy(s and gals) s/he assaulted until pictures of Tomlinson were released.

I apologise for the appalling naivety shown in this post.

Bystanders helped Mr Tomlinson to his feet and he staggered 40 yards along Cornhill before collapsing outside the Co-operative Bank.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6062637.ece

He was initially reported to have stumbled 200 yards before collapsing. Then 50. Now 40. Very hard to believe that none of the police on the scene of the attack were aware that he collapsed shortly afterwards.

Scum.

 

[maomao]

It's not even the violence that's so upsetting, we've all seen cops get a bit truncheony on demos. It's the incompetence, lies and smears. I think The Daily Mail are now making a conscious effort to smear and present it as a 'bad apple' case given that even their own readers seems shocked at it.

 

[Kaka Tim]

We may guess he was uncooperative or said something offensive, at a time when police nerves we frayed by the G20 riots. (Daily Mail leader column, Thurs, April 9, 2009, p14).

but they're weren't 'riots' - RSB got attacked and there was some argy bargy outside the bank earlier when people tried to break the lines - all of which took place several hourse earlier. The rest of the day was the police pushing, shoving, shouting, batononing and kettling - people were reacting by shouting and swearing back and pushing back and throwing the occaisonal missile. The police tactic was to intimidate and terrorise protestors. In all the footage you only see one incident of police being attacked - and that was very eary in the day when people were trying to break the police line by RBS.

 

[free spirit]

Any joy on this as I need to see it? Then I can add to what I already told "them". Thanks in advance.

not sure, but this was the reason I'd started a seperate thread specifically for people to post up relevant pictures, witness statements, videos etc.

ie, so that people wouldn't have to trawl through 28 pages of a discussion thread to try and find links to the info they wanted to find.

does anyone else think that would be useful still, and if so would the editor consider either starting a new thread, or reopening the closed one (or would I, or someone else be ok to start a new one?)

 

[e19896]

This lying and spin is fucking shit

To be expected, those who have been involved and active had no doubt from the first lies of the police and media the truth of how they killed him would come out, no they need to defend there actions and print Ian story so it seems he was the agresser, his actions brought on the assult, haveing been a former drinker, with drug problems your history reputation will allways be used against you, so fucking what he had problems, dose this give the right for the scum to act how they did of course not..

IPCC TRIED TO GET VIDEO REMOVED FROM GUARDIAN WEBSITE

Firstly respects to the Guardian - and to Paul Lewis in particular - for their dogged coverage and investigation into Ian Tomlinson’s death. Incredibly it has now emerged that on Tuesday night a member of the IPCC - accompanied by a City of London police officer - visited the Guardian’s offices asking them to remove the police assault video from their website. ”it might jeapordise our enquiry’ http://ianbone.wordpress.com/

People are not daft and will not beleave the lies now coming forword, and here we have to thank Paul Lewis for his work in getting it this far, he was there on twitter much of the day, and in words has told the truth.