Fuck Gentrification - Join the Fuck Parade...Part 3!

[cesare]

Thanks, eighteenth century! It's a joy to me that we can unironically draw up and put into practice real world divisions where property-owning baby boomers sit comfortably on one side of the definition, but own nothing except a bit of leveraged retail space or a fucking burger van and you're on the other with a nod to Kierkegaard or something, neglecting actual meaningful divisions in order to bite your own tail. What a load of shit.

Not a caricature of the WC per se, but a caricature of a useless pattern that grants you admission, and one that doesn't feel challenged by modern complexities. See above.

I don't know London. Probably somewhere much nearer the M25 now. But when the crash comes and the music stops and various demographics migrate to or settle in particular places, it'll be a lot clearer.

You have the better of me mauvais - particularly because you seem to be in possession of facts that I don't have. For example, these shop keepers' lack of owning anything except leveraged retail space. Did you pluck that from your arse, or are you actually in a position to know this?

Edit: Wrong century, muppet.

 

[Pickman's model]

Thanks, eighteenth century! It's a joy to me that we can unironically draw up and put into practice real world divisions where property-owning baby boomers sit comfortably on one side of the definition, but own nothing except a bit of leveraged retail space or a fucking burger van and you're on the other with a nod to Kierkegaard or something, neglecting actual meaningful divisions in order to bite your own tail. What a load of shit.

Not a caricature of the WC per se, but a caricature of a useless pattern that grants you admission, and one that doesn't feel challenged by modern complexities. See above.

I don't know London. Probably somewhere much nearer the M25 now. And 'fading' isn't necessarily connected at all to property values either. But when the crash comes and the music stops and various demographics migrate to or settle in particular places, it'll be a lot clearer.

if i'd wanted a post that showed you haven't a clue i couldn't have invented a better one than this ^^

 

[stethoscope]

No wonder change is never going to happen politically/economically/socially in this country when we're so full of wishy-washy liberals who don't seem to understand class or its relevance today, question gentrification as being no more than prejudice against someone's appearance, and think that throwing paint at a private business is violence.

I'm not even an anarchist but proper fucking depressing it really is

 

[Pickman's model]

You have the better of me mauvais - particularly because you seem to be in possession of facts that I don't have. For example, these shop keepers' lack of owning anything except leveraged retail space. Did you pluck that from your arse, or are you actually in a position to know this?

Edit: Wrong century, muppet.

mauvais never has the better of you.

 

[cesare]

No wonder change is never going to happen politically/economically in this country when we're so full of wishy-washy liberals who don't seem to understand class or its relevance today, question gentrification as being no more than prejudice against someone's appearance, and think that throwing paint at a private business is violence.

I've not even an anarchist but proper fucking depressing it really is

This is where Marxists and anarchists find some common ground

 

[cesare]

mauvais never has the better of you.

He's far better than me with microsoft paint, tbf.

 

[Pickman's model]

mauvais what's the difference between your real world divisions and your actual meaningful divisions?

 

[Pickman's model]

He's far better than me with microsoft paint, tbf.

sign of a mis-spent youth

 

[cesare]

I'm really surprised at this lack of concern for the dispossessed and homeless together with the annoyance at those that fight back against it.

 

[cesare]

sign of a mis-spent youth

Everyone should have a mis-spent youth

 

[mauvais]

You have the better of me mauvais - particularly because you seem to be in possession of facts that I don't have. For example, these shop keepers' lack of owning anything except leveraged retail space. Did you pluck that from your arse, or are you actually in a position to know this?

Look at the actual cash capital needed to start a business - not necessarily a long term successful one, but something resembling a business all the same. Not how much borrowed money you need to spend, or how much blood you need to cough up in security, but what you need in cash. Supposedly 92% do it with less than a grand. Supposedly 8% live in social housing, FWIW. Fuck it, you can apparently build a skyscraper with three thousand euros.

Is any of this healthy? Of course not. Does 'starting a business' translate specifically or even strongly into operating out of London retail estate? Probably not, although propping up retail leasing is probably more about property speculation than it is about any meaningful prospects for the tenant. But if you want to draw up lines where running a shop inherently puts someone on the wrong side, which seems to be some people's aim, then to do it rationally, it's going to be a weirdly contorted affair and you're going to end up with a very small, slightly strange collection of people in your quarter.

 

[Pickman's model]

Everyone should have a mis-spent youth

yeh. but spending it in front of a computer, not even on the internet or playing a game - that's just a waste

 

[Pickman's model]

,

 

[cesare]

Look at the actual cash capital needed to start a business - not necessarily a long term successful one, but something resembling a business all the same. Not how much borrowed money you need to spend, or how much blood you need to cough up in security, but what you need in cash. Supposedly 92% do it with less than a grand. Supposedly 8% live in social housing, FWIW. Fuck it, you can apparently build a skyscraper with three thousand euros.

Is any of this healthy? Of course not. Does 'starting a business' translate specifically or even strongly into operating out of London retail estate? Probably not, although propping up retail leasing is probably more about property speculation than it is about any meaningful prospects for the tenant. But if you want to draw up lines where running a shop inherently puts someone on the wrong side, which seems to be some people's aim, then to do it rationally, it's going to be a weirdly contorted affair and you're going to end up with a very small, slightly strange collection of people in your quarter.

Point us in the direction of where anyone drew a line at running a shop, please.

 

[stethoscope]

I'm really surprised at this lack of concern for the dispossessed and homeless together with the annoyance at those that fight back against it.

This is what really gets me. The whole liberal outrage and incredible amounts of navel gazing I've seen in the media, social media, etc. about 'violence against a cereal cafe' (which as someone mentioned above, is two shops now employing 12 staff that got hit with some paint!) in one of London's poorest areas. Where's the fucking equal outrage from those people about what's happening to those communities, the shit housing situation, that public services are being decimated, Asian Women's centres being replaced by shops selling fucking overpriced designer lampshades. OH BUT THEY SHOULD HAVE TARGETED STARBUCKS FIRST11!1!

Fucking nora.

 

[cesare]

This is what really gets me. The whole liberal outrage and incredible amounts of navel gazing I've seen in the media, social media, etc. about a 'violence against a cereal cafe' (which as someone mentioned above, is two shops now employing 12 staff with a bit of paint over it!) in one of London's poorest areas. Where's the fucking equal outrage from those people about what's happening to those communities, the shit housing situation, that public services are being decimated, Asian Women's centres being replaced by fucking shops selling overpriced designer lampshades. OH BUT THEY SHOULD HAVE TARGETED STARBUCKS FIRST11!1!

Fucking nora.

I think it stems mainly from fear. For example , if we concentrate efforts on the dispossessed and homeless, then the squeezed middle won't be any better off. And if wealth is redistributed, the squeezed middle won't be better off. Plus identification with making money and expanding and becoming an employer with more and more staff to earn a profit from.

 

[mauvais]

mauvais what's the difference between your real world divisions and your actual meaningful divisions?

Real world divisions shouldn't need any illustration. The current trend of accelerating wealth consolidation and the joys of "trickle down" economics, at various different levels from the corporate to the individual landlord. Where you draw the most important line is up to you, but I suggest it's not at the fairly arbitrary, low point of whether someone can run a shop or not.

The latter doesn't tell you a thing about net wealth, or the flow of wealth. You can have paid off the mortgage on what is now a £n00,000 house, or for that matter be paying much less than the market rate in rent, and noone bat an eyelid at your class credentials. But be permanently mired in private renting yet put up a few grand in cash on a shit business idea that the bank shouldn't have supported and is ultimately going to bankrupt you, and you're the bourgeoisie. It's a useless measure.

 

[mauvais]

Point us in the direction of where anyone drew a line at running a shop, please.

What's this?

Would it be okay if they were local working class
lads running the the cereal shop? Are other shops in the area allowed to sell to hipsters or do they then become class traitors?

Working class shop owners. Hilarious!

 

[cesare]

What's this?

You think that's some sort of line? The line is owning the means of production.

Edit: So, to illustrate, I'm petit bourgeois becuase I work for myself. But if I start employing someone and making a profit from their labour, I exploit their labour. I can do that in a fairly small way such as tradespeople like painters and decorators do. Or I can do it in a way where I want to expand, get more shops, employ more people. But you misunderstand C66's reaction. He wasn't saying that there's an absolute line drawn at owning a shop (which is how you're misrepresenting it). He was laughing at the idea that shop owners could be positioned as working class. Even the cafe owners themselves don't say that, they just always mention that they come from working class roots.

 

[mauvais]

You think that's some sort of line? The line is owning the means of production.

The chief concern of the dispossessed and homeless, is it?

 

[cesare]

The chief concern of the dispossessed and homeless, is it?

Owning the means of production? Where have I said that the dispossessed and homeless are mainly concerned with owning the means of production?

 

[Pickman's model]

What's this?

don't just take my word for it

 

[Pickman's model]

Real world divisions shouldn't need any illustration. The current trend of accelerating wealth consolidation and the joys of "trickle down" economics, at various different levels from the corporate to the individual landlord. Where you draw the most important line is up to you, but I suggest it's not at the fairly arbitrary, low point of whether someone can run a shop or not.

The latter doesn't tell you a thing about net wealth, or the flow of wealth. You can have paid off the mortgage on what is now a £n00,000 house, or for that matter be paying much less than the market rate in rent, and noone bat an eyelid at your class credentials. But be permanently mired in private renting yet put up a few grand in cash on a shit business idea that the bank shouldn't have supported and is ultimately going to bankrupt you, and you're the bourgeoisie. It's a useless measure.

sounds like a load of auld tosh to me. i would prefer you not to use terms which convey meaning only to you in the future.

 

[no-no]

how often do we need to go over the phrase 'relationship to the means of production' before you understsnd it? shopowners are, hsve been, and will remain petit-bourgeois. unless they're proper bourgeois...

Can you go over it one more time for me please? I don't understand.

 

[cesare]

don't just take my word for it

We're a nation of shopkeeprs and still rather attached to it I guess it harks back to trade and its importance in developing the Empire Plus Thatcher's children etc

 

[cesare]

There's hope for the shop keepers in the revolution though! 1789: The Fact and Fiction of the Sans-Culottes Movement

 

[stethoscope]

Still, watching 'left' liberals uniting with right-wing libertarians uniting with the political/media establishment uniting with business people to condone this 'terrible action' has been most illuminating. More interesting than the cereal cafe getting hit tbh - which when I heard about it on Sat night bought some brief amusement and a reaction of 'oh, I could see that happening' but beyond that I didn't really give much more thought about it. Never for one moment expected they'd be all this.

 

[cesare]

Still, watching 'left' liberals uniting with right-wing libertarians uniting with the political/media establishment uniting with business people to condone this 'terrible action' has been most illuminating. More interesting than the cereal cafe getting hit tbh - which when I heard about it on Sat night bought some brief amusement and a reaction of 'oh, I could see that happening' but beyond that I didn't really give much more thought about it, and never for one moment expected they'd be all this.

Protection of property and profit, innit. All the rest is handwavey fight for Corbyn shit.

 

[belboid]

someone posted this on the CIF article, may be worth someone like Laptop looking at it.

it's not entirely accurate - tho it gets the gist right. One of those CEO's then came to work on the similar scheme in Sheffield, until a local community newspaper exposed them.

 

[Citizen66]

You think that's some sort of line? The line is owning the means of production.

Edit: So, to illustrate, I'm petit bourgeois becuase I work for myself. But if I start employing someone and making a profit from their labour, I exploit their labour. I can do that in a fairly small way such as tradespeople like painters and decorators do. Or I can do it in a way where I want to expand, get more shops, employ more people. But you misunderstand C66's reaction. He wasn't saying that there's an absolute line drawn at owning a shop (which is how you're misrepresenting it). He was laughing at the idea that shop owners could be positioned as working class. Even the cafe owners themselves don't say that, they just always mention that they come from working class roots.

Not sure if self employed is MC as you're still selling your labour but to clients rather than a boss.